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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been having a long (constructive and intelligent) discussion with someone else about this, and he is saying that he would and has folded the nuts (on the flop or turn) and it was the best move to do so.

I don't see the logic of it and could never see when or why I would.

Here is the scenario at hand.

you:
:Ad :Kd

Flop
:10s :Qs :Jh

Your opponent could hold (of course) any hand. Two spades, even the same two cards as you hold, however he has the draw to the nut flush, and the Royal. But, as you sit in the hand, you have flopped the nuts on the flop, do you fold?
 

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Please let me know who this person is so I know who to run the bluffs on. That is where the gamble of the game comes into play not to mention the most important factor of making +EV moves over the course of your poker career.

If you put the guy all-in with the nuts knowing he has to hit the flush draw for certain victory, you have made the +EV every time and he is stuck with the -EV move based on pot odds. If implied odds are involved meaning it is great advantage for him to make the move for a huge double up and will cripple you, the implied odds may get him closer to the +EV decision but most of the time he will be left with -EV.

The decision IMO we also be dependent if it is tourney vs. cash game. It is a worse decision to lay down the nuts in the tourney than in the cash game but that is assuming I would ever lay down the nuts which I would not. The only way I could even fathom laying it down was if I was assured a top prize money finish by making that laydown and that would be rare to have that assurance.

Other than that, I am with the kid.....just cut 'em off and bury them if you see me make that play.
 

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The only hand that is favorite over the hand now is what Quads pointed out AsKs (it has a free roll).

As far as folding?

In limit poker...No Way.

In no limit poker cash game...No Way.

In no limit tourney...Maybe. Only in very special circumstance. Like if I am a supersatellite am I was in the big blind with no raise and I am one of the big stacks out of 5 people and 4 are guarantee seats in the main tourney and somehow 2 of the other players got involved which one was all in on the flop, then I would throw my hand in. Otherwise...No Way.
 

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That is the exact situation I was talking about as well Ace. Ditto Ditto Ditto.
 

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Never, in any type of cash, and maybe only in a very very specific tournament situation would I lay the nuts down on the flop. Think about how often you flop the actual "nut" hand... it's almost never... and when you do, you can't fear about getting drawn out on. If you lay this down, you shouldn't be playing poker... it's like giving money away.

Now laying down top pair top kicker (AK with an Axx flop 2 spades) might be a different situation, especially in a limit game where I have laid it down.

... day I lay down the nut straight on the flop is the day you can take my nuts away.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
This is pretty much the course of the conversation I was having with him on this and then we took for hypothetical discussion, expanding on the topic, here is the board:

you:
:Ad :Kd

Flop
:10s :Qs :Jh

him:
:As :Ks

His cards were flipped up, you angled them, something of that nature. Basically, you now know what he (or she) holds. You are behind in the sense that you won't improve you hand, and he has outs to improve. Do you still fold, while holding the nuts at that point in the hand?
 

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Well,

Based on the odds calculator you have 32% equity in the pot and he has 68%. So the decision will be based on what is in the pot and how much both of you have left.

Also, your call might worry him since he would probably put you on a set. So if the board pair you might want to bluff (against top players only).
 

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Even I'm not so tight as to lay down that hand. Even if he tables his AK spades, I'm still getting my chips in. You are a favorite NOT to get drawn-out on. Yeah he has outs and I'm pretty much stuck with the hand I have (no redraws), but I'm 4:1 to hold up for a chop.

There is that very special tourney situation (similar to that refered to above) that I hope I'm aware enough to consider that a laydown would be prudent. Other than that if you can't bet/call the nuts, why are you playing this game?
 

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Well wait a minute now.. say he tables his hand and shows :Ks :As for the flopped nut straight and nut flush redraw... now this is a different story. I'm only a 60 something % to take half this pot... I have no way of taking the whole thing, and like half of the time I'm going to lose it. If it's heads up, or even 3 total players, I would fold this if I KNEW he had AKs. My reasoning: if it's heads up, we chop and I win nothing, but risk losing it all. If there's 3 players, we chop for a small profit, but I can still lose it all. Also, the 3rd player might have a strong hand, say a set, then there's another redraw that I can lose to.

With that info in hand, i would lay it down. But how often do you know for sure what your opponet holds? Also, usually (in limit especially) there are more than 3 players, so I'm getting plenty of chips even if I do chop. my 2 cents

-kid
 

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Well wait a minute now.. say he tables his hand and shows AK spades for the flopped nut straight and nut flush redraw... now this is a different story.
I'd have to agree that pot size/bet size would have to come into consideration when you KNOW what he holds. If it's a $10 pot and a $100 bet, it's probably a correct laydown. The odds are in your favor to take half the pot, but risking $100 to win $105 probably isn't worth it. If it's a $100 pot and a $10 bet it's an easy call. I guess the question becomes where is the line where it becomes a decision.


Cash Game considerations
It's about 2.5:1 that the flush will hit with 2 cards to come. So, a little more than half the time you'll win 1/2 the pot, the rest you'll win 0. With that logic, the pot needs to be about double your call for it to be "correct" according to odds numbers. This is further complicated if niether of you is all-in as there could be more action on the turn. If he misses his flush on the turn, you need less odds to call a turn bet if there is further action, but that possibility gives you implied odds on the flop.

Tourney Considerations
Your odds are no different, but obviously tournies require a little diffierent thought process. This would be more about your stack size than odds. If you're short stacked at crunch time, you probably have to make this call, unless the pot is rediculously small. If you have a huge chip advantage and the call will not cripple you, you have to make the call, again unless the pot is rediculously small. If calling and getting sucked out dramtically changes your chip position, it's probably prudent to lay it down.

Again, this is assuming you KNOW that he has the AK spades. You'll get me off of this hand when you pry it from my cold dead hand if the information is still "unknown".
 

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nah... having the extra diamond redraw only adds a couple of % advantage to you... not significant in the scheme of things.

Hagar, I agree with all that you said given certain conditions. In most cases, you won't know what the other player holds, so making this laydown would be very hard unless you knew FOR SURE that the other player held AK with the spade redraw... really, how often does that happen?

-kid
 

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ok a month or so ago hagar was ready to lay down pocket aces preflop but now he will not fold this hand knowing that he is going to either split or lose the pot, i do not understand that logic. Now if i knew for a fact he had Ak spades i would lay this hand down. I would have to be 100% certain he had that hand to make this play. Winning half a pot is never worth losing a big chunk of your tourny chips.
 
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