[Guest]

OK...I'm going to attempt to ask a question here without soliciting a bunch of volatile responses about the merits and drawbacks of tourney add-ons. Please just think of this as a fact-finding exercise by me. As much as I love you all to death, I don't care what you think about add-ons, at least insofar as this thread is concerned. I just wanna know something factual about how professional casinos run their tourneys. Got it??? :wink:

OK...Let's begin...

Question 1a. Assume that "Casino X" is having a tourney in which an add-on is permitted after the first two rounds. Assuming that the cost of the add-on is EQUAL TO the amount of the original buy-in, is the chip stack that you get for that add-on (which costs the same) also usually EQUAL to the stack that you got to start the tourney with?

Question 1b. If the add-on stack IS NOT THE SAME SIZE, then is it usually larger or smaller than the inital stack (again...assuming that the cost is the same).

Question 2a. Assume that "Casino X" is having a tourney in which an add-on is permitted after the first two rounds. Assuming that the cost of the add-on is ONE HALF the amount of the original buy-in, is the chip stack that you get for that add-on usually ONE HALF the stack that you got to start the tourney with?

Question 2b. If the add-on stack IS NOT ONE HALF OF THE ORIGINAL, then is it usually larger or smaller than one half of the initial stack (again...assuming that the cost is one half of the buy-in).

To put it in simpler terms, are the add-ons costs and stacks usually in direct proportion to the costs and stacks at the start of the tourney.

I am asking because I do not play in casino tourneys. Again...Just the facts, please. Thank you...

 

[Ace-in-Space]

I am assuming the casino tournaments you are mentioning are the small buy-in daily ones at various locations throughout CA (either limit or no limit format). The Bay Area and L.A. casinos would have maybe 6-12 tables for these daily tourneys. I won one at Hollywood Park in L.A. where there was a $15 entry fee and I cashed about $850 (although the first place would've paid $1000 I made a deal with 3 players remained where I had about 70% of the chips and the other two had about 15% each, or something to that effect.)

Firstly, I want to emphasize that add ons are almost always associated (close to 100%) in rebuy tourneys. Although my experience is limited, I have never played in a no-rebuy tourney with add ons.

These are called Progressive Stack Rebuy Tourneys because you get more chips later per same amount of money. The following structure is somewhat typical (although the amount of entry fees might have gone up than described):

1. Buy-in: $15 for $200 in chips

2. Rebuys: 1st 20 minutes $10 for $200 in chips. Option to rebuy anytime chip count is under $200.

2nd 20 minutes $10 for $300 in chips. Option to rebuy anytime chip count is under $300.

3rd 20 minutes $10 for $400 in chips. Option to rebuy anytime chip count is under $400.

3. Add on: One optional $10 add on for $400 in chips regardless of number of chips in a player's stack at the end of the first 60 minutes. Players with less than $400 can opt to both rebuy and add on (i.e. pay $20 for $800 in chips)

4. There is no more rebuys/addons after the first 60 minutes (usually there is an intermission at this time).

5. Betting limits: Increase every 20 minutes starting at 10-20, then 15-30, 30-60, etc.

 

[Guest]

Ace...Hmmm...Interesting...So let me just throw something out there...

Consider a freezeout tournament where you are out of it as soon as you're broke, but an add-on is allowed in between rounds for the first couple of rounds for those people who still have chips in front of them.

Are you saying that's a very rare bird and not a common practice?

 

[Guest]

I have a question and please excuse my ignorance as I am one of the ones that you hardly ever see at the games due to both financial and time constraints. My question is:

If (by some freak of nature) I am the chip leader by a buy-in or two and everyone does a "buy-in" and all of a sudden the table is more even. Am I allowed to do a "buy-in" as well? Or is all the work I just did to increase my chip lead at the table for nothing?

 

[Guest]

If an add-on or re-buy is allowed, then anybody or everybody at the table can choose to participate or not, including the chip leader.

 

[Guest]

So are you allowed only one rebuy or can you do two or three? If you are the chip leader and everyone buys in then that kind of forces the hand of the chip leader to do the same to keep his advantage.....right? Or I could just keep a ballpeen hammer on the table next ot me to disuade people.......LOL!!!

 

[Guest]

I do know that it's usually only one add-on or one re-buy at a time, but there might be multiple opportunities during the early stages of a tourney to do either one. So yes...Even the chip leader might have to keep pumping money out in order to keep up.

 

[Ace-in-Space]

Guys, let me clarify things a little. I hope you understand that rebuy is different than add on. Add on happens at the end of the rebuy period and it is a one-time thing.

Also, keep in mind you CANNOT rebuy at anytime. You can only do so, in my example, during the first hour of the tourney, AND your chip level falls under the threshold level. Thus, you won't be able to rebuy your way to the chip leadership.

Doc, as far as add ons are concerned, it is a way to build up the prize pool since, at least in my example, only $10 of the initial buy-in goes towards the pool, the other $5 is the entry fee.

 

[Quads]

Ace, how you are explaining it is different than what I know.

Not to start a thread argument that will result in another flame from Doc., but in regards to rebuys, I've seen those both ways. Most common is when you hit the felt, you can rebuy. I've also seen both formats of unlimited rebuys and only one rebuy. Rebuy amounts in my experience have ALWAYS been the same amount of the initial buy in.

As far as Add Ons, I've seen where there are add ons in the first 'x' rounds, or unlimited add ons in the first x rounds, and or add ons all the way through. I've also seen both scenarios where an add on will be equal to the number in chips for the buy in, or greater. In the last tourney I played in Vegas at Casino X, the add on was 1500 chips. 500 more than the buy in.

Most people sat down and in the first hand added on. If you were shy later in the game and were willing to pull $300 more out of your pocket you could add on again. Another tourney we played followed this same format other than it was only a single add on event.

Regards-
Quads*

"You can't lose what you don't put in the middle. You can't win much either"

*Now, this is only my thought. I may be wrong. If you don't like it or agree with it, pass over the thread and don't get your dick tied in a knott. This is what I know to be true for me. Not your cup of tea? Move on to the next thread until you find something you like.

 

[Guest]

So someone who does well in the first round of a tourny and be the chip leader could have that taken away by somone with deeper pockets? What's the point of buying into a smaller tourny like that and just buying your way into the chip lead? Why not play a bigger tounry and win some realy money? So if there is a $40 buy in tourny and there are 3 buy ins in the first round then you could essentially start out with $120 worth of chips to the next persons $40.....why would the second person even play?

It sounds like when a better softball team comes into a tourny and "sandbags" just to beat up on lesser teams. Which I have always thought of as a seriously PUSSY way to do things but whatever floats your boat.

If I am not understanding then please clear the fog for me!!!!

 

[Quads]

Question 1a.
Yes and No

Question 1b.
Yes

Question 2a.
Yes and No

Question 2b.
Larger or Equal

YMMV based on your experiences.

 

[Dodger]

I've seen this shit done several different ways. One example, a poor one, but an example none the less, is the way the Don Juan used to run their Sunday tourney.
$5 buy-in for 1500 in chips
$10 rebuy in the first three rounds
1st round
under $1000, $10 gets you $2500
2nd round
under $2000, $10 gets you $4500
3rd round
under $3000, $10 gets you $6500

at the end of round three there is an add-on available
$20 get you $20,000

under this format, the play in the first three rounds' only meaning is how much it costs to play. Being chip leader is usually meaningless going into the fourth round, because everyone adds-on and the difference between $26000 chips and $29000 is very little. 6 to 9 split is big, 26-29 split is little.

Add-on touneys are a way to even the field and create a bigger prize fund. That's it.

 

[Guest]

Then why wouldn't you just hold a higher buy-in tourney and just do it that way? Sounds like kind of a backwards way of doing it. Oh well.......not like I am going to be playing in one.........tnx for the info!!

 

[Dodger]

Agreed, it's a way to hide the buy-in amount at a card room or casino.

 

[Hagar]

Every rebuy tourney that I've seen in a public room (which is admittedly few) that has rebuys/add-ons are like this:

Rebuys anytime you go broke or rebuys anytime. (one or the other)

The rebuys are usually for as many or more chips then the original stake and cost as much or more as the original entry fee. This encourages lot's of rebuys - it's a good value.

Add-ons usually occur at one given point in the tourney - usually at the point where rebuys and add-ons are about to cease. Add-ons are usually for the same cost or more than the original entry fee and you get at least as many chips as the original stake.

Yes, Daddy, these types of tourneys do tend to favor deep pockets - it is standard rebuy tourney strategy to plan on spending the maximum amount possible on rebuys. Having the chip lead early in the tournament is fairly useless - people can just keep buying bigger stacks. That is what I don't like about rebuy tourneys - the real cost is somewhat hidden and can be hard to predict.

 

[BigKahuna]

My own vote to get the $1,500 prize pool you were mentioning in your email to everyone is to just concentrate on getting the masses there and keep it as simple as possible. 30 people x $50 entry = $1,500 pool which is a nice size and larger than anything we have done so far.

Instead of putting all this effort into everyone's version of an add-on or re-buy, why not focus on the original intent of this event which is to get as many people to this thing as possible.

Quads already ran a tourney with add-ons that was very successful. Why invent the wheel...use his model and move on.

More importantly I would think would be a centralized location, increased number of payout spots even if first place does not get 40 or 50% for the win, make the tourney fun with high hand or bad beat jack pot, music, maybe a scheduled break for good mingling, other ways to make this thing more appealing to come. My personal belief is that only a small fraction of this group is really interested in playing for higher stakes or trying to squeeze every last drop out of the rebuys/add-ons so that the kitty wil climb and climb and climb.

I know you did not want any rants or judgements in this thread but I forsee this discussion heading the way of the WSOP tourney thread where everyone keeps offering an opinion until the thread starts repeating with the same ideas because someone did not read through pages 1 through 3 already.

Like I said, Quads version of this discussion worked great already so just go with it. I think most important is to pick the date and location and then try to market the hell out of it with basics to try and fill the seats.

No flames or arguments necessary as this is the only hting I will be posting in this thread.

 

[Ace-in-Space]

Well, what more can I say. These are my final thoughts on my subject:

1. Rebuy tourneys obviously take a different strategy than no rebuy ones. It doesn't mean that these tourneys are a total crapshoot.

2. Deeper pockets tend to have a better chance at winning.

3. The rebuy tourneys that I have played in you cannot rebuy at any time. You have to be busted or your chip level has be under a certain level.

4. Casinos use rebuys to increase the prize pool.

5. If you feel the players remaining are more skillful than you. You might just invest the initial buy in and not rebuy for more chips.

6. Most rebuy tourneys have increases on the chips you get later to keep up the increase in limits.

 

[Guest]

Thanks, Guys. I appreciate all the input. I got what I was looking for.