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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Thought I'd stop by and check out Phoenix Casino today. Looks like they have $10/20... cool! No more 12/24 at Derby, so I need a new mid limit game to get into.

Overall initals thoughts: VERY GOOD! (not to mention up $1000 for the night!)

1). Blinds reasonable at 10 big, 5 small, $4 max drop. Bad beats, too.
2). Action is (at least tonight) excellent. Good mix of loose, tight, good, bad players. I fit right in the mix of things.
3). Excellent dealers and staff in my opinion. Full knowledge of rules, and get this, the dealers ENFORCE standard poker rules. Even the English only and no exposure of hands!!!
4). Free drinks and 1 free meal why you play! I had a pretty good BLT w/ salad. Free.
5). Alcohol is served (not good to drink because I don't while I play, but others do and the play can get sloppy).

Overall, I'm impressed. They also have 4/8, but didn't check that out. Smallish room of 4 tables, with some other games in the back. I like the place, even though I've heard negatives about it. I'll for sure go back and hit up that 10/20 game! If tonight is any indicator, I could make a living there if I wanted to! Easily made $1000 in 10 hours... and wasn't even that hot.. I was just getting good action all the way on my big hands! And not quite so much drawing out at the 10/20 level as at 4/8.

Oh yeah, also it's a FULL KILL game, so the pots and bets can get pretty pricy if you don't have the bankroll for it. a 20/40 game adds up QUICK.

Let me know if you have any thoughts on it.

-David "Kid"
 

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I have two thoughts:

1.) Congrats on the $1,000 profit and it sounds like a "live" game.
2.) I disagree about your opinion of players that drink at the table bringing sloppy play to the mix because I am that player! I'll give you one of my tells - drinking at the table can be used to throw off other players who might think that you're play is TOO loose, kamikaze, or SLOPPY! Most players will have a hard time reading me.

Just my 2 cents, but then again. . . what the hell do I know!

:wink:

Worm
 

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From my experience $10/20 is usually tighter than $9/18 or $12/24 because the pots look smaller (using $5 chips instead of $3 chips). For a full kill to $20/40 you probably need a recommended minimum of $400 to start.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks for the comments!

Worm: I totally agree with your point on using the illusion of being drunk to induce players to change their opinion of your play... what I was talking about was actually 1 specific guy who was totally drunk off his ass. In the time that I was at the table (8 hours), me and some other guys counted that he had around 10 beers! In addition, he bought in for over $2000 (including rebuys), went all the way down to the felt, then got SO HOT that he was up almost even by the time I left. This guy was piss drunk, being rude to the waitress, getting food and crap on the table, etc. Good action... almost too much action! One specific incidence I remember is when his 97o took down a HUGE pot when he rivered a gutshot straight vs. 2 flopped sets (88 & JJ)!!! Those guys were pissed, let me tell ya! Thanks for the feedback.

Ace: I have been told that when pots are "physically" smalled in size, that the play becomes looser. In theory I would agree with this, but this table was not the case. Probably 70-80% of preflops were raised at least once, and I was getting plenty of action on my big hands, even though I never once showed a weak hand! (Hell, I'd even raise Under the gun with a monster like AKs or KK and even say to the table, guys I've got a huge hand here!)... call call call call. You'd figure if they can call 2 cold then they have a huge hand... but my biggest hands got drawn out on a couple times by crap like J8s, 23, etc.

I bought in for $300, but got lucky enough not to need more. Those kill pots get big, though, and even though I know you're not supposed to think about the money going into the pot (better to think of it as chips), sometimes its hard to not think, "man, calling that raise will cost me $80!!" I think I did ok, though... and for the most part my 2 racks may have well just as been $1 chips.



Thanks for all the good feedback guys.
 

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Gotcha. I love playing against idiots like that as long as you can endure all the other distractions that he brings to the table.

I couldn't make it last night to the derby. Did you play? How did you do? I should be there next Tues.

Worm
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Yeah, idiots like that are great for spurring the action at the table. We had him plus one other idiot that played EVERY hand and everyone time busted out he'd go over to Pai-Gow and come back with handfuls of $100 chips!! :shock: How do those people do it? I thought that game had a built in house edge just like every other game. Anyway, those 2 players made for super action all night, and I was hitting my cards and vaccuming up all the chips!

Didn't do well at all at the Derby tourney! Busted out on the 4th hand!!! That's actually one of the reasons I headed to the Phoenix, cause I still wanted to play but Derby had a huge ass list for all games.

So it's the 4th hand of the tourney. I raised UTG with KK to $300 (25/50 blinds, so this was actually a pretty big raise), and 2 callers. BB reraises me to $900, I think, "WTF this is the 4th hand... only 1 possible hand can beat me! I hate these situations so early on cause I'm here to play a tourney, ya know?" Still, I'm a rational person and figure the chances of him having AA are marginal, so I push all-in. Other callers fold, the ASS HAT in the blind calls me and flips up AJs. SWEET, double up time!! ...until, of course, one of the 3 Aces falls on the turn. CRAP. IDIOT. oh well. I'd do it again in that position.

-David
 

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That sucks. I know we've all been there, but that doesn't make it feel any better. I hate when you wait all that time to get into the tournament just to get cracked on a hand like yours 5 minutes into the tourney.

Oh well, shit happen and we live to fight another day. See you next Tues.

Worm
 

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KK is, IMO, a tough, tough hand to play. Hellmuth would have pushed just like you, but I guarantee Brunson would have thrown away. Yeah, you're like 65% to win (if you can put him on an Ace-face hand), but I personally wouldn't risk it on the 4th hand.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Yeah, actually in this situation I'm a 67.3% against AJs (almost the same as any AXs) and oddly a little less of a favorite against AKs...

So KK is pretty much a 3:1 over any Ace/big suited, but is a HUGE advantage over any pair other than AA.

So I dunno... I think I'd risk it in again in this type of tournament. Derby tournies are quick and aggressive, and if you can double up quickly you have a significant increase in your ability to place.

So.... would anyone go all in with KK in the first round of a big tourney, such as the WSOP, hypothetically speaking?? Such a good hand I'm not sure I could lay down preflop unless the situation dictated to do so! Thanks for the thoughts!

-david 'kid"
 
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It's hard to lay down KK in any situation especially preflop but you don't want to bust out at the beginning of the tournament you've been standing around waiting for either. You've got a lot of work to do and it is a marathon not a sprint.

In that situation I think since he didn't push just make the call and put him all in after the flop if no Ace shows. It'll be harder for him to push with only 2 cards left to hit his Ace on. And if the ace shows on the flop and he pushes then fold and you still have half a stack to work your way back with.

It's unfortunate that you ran into that situation but I think you can still play it without risking all your chips or just folding your original bet. If he goes all in preflop in that same situation you have to fold only because it's early and folding that KK at that point int the tournament will not break a player such as yourself. Just fold the best hand and move on.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Bigdog,

That also was an option that went through my head... flat call and if no Ace comes out then my call of his all-in will be much easier. If the Ace does hit, then maybe I can lay it down and still have half my chips left.

I had a feeling that he was the type of player that would have pushed all-in on ANY flop, reglardless of what he had in that situation... he was super aggressive and had no problems raised to 900 with AJs.

KK is a great hand, though, but you always have to figure that the other raiser could easily have an Ace in his hand, the killer for your hand. I guess we all just hope and prayer that they have a smaller pocket!

Thanks for the insight... tournaments are all about making big decisions that will either put you out or put you in the money, so to speak.

-david
 

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Day I lay down KK or AA heads up is the day I quit poker. I would have gone broke on that hand as well. Only way I am laying that down is if I know the guys playing style and can put him with confidence on AA based on past play, or if there is a raise and re-raise before action gets to me, then I would think about laying down.

As for the flop play, unless an A or K hits on the flop, you are still going broke because if you push he will call knowing he has the better overpair and if he pushes you would probably have an equally hard time laying down.

Either way I feel you are 95% going broke in that hand 95% of the time and the other 5% we'' reserve for when you achieve total enlightenment.

In that tourney as you stated doubling up early is key. If it were the WSOP where you have 90 minute rounds and 10,000 in starting chips it would probably be a fold without much disappointment (at least for me).
 
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