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Quads in Vegas Pt. 2

Saturday Night: Belagio
No Limit Table
Min $2000 Buy In
$10/$20 blinds.

After coming back from breakfast with Dan, he bounced out. We were getting close to the 5 AM hour. SJ is over on the $15/$30 table making a killing. I took a few nice pots and was holding my edge at the table. There is something to be said for sitting at the table that you have been working for 6 hours and started with $2,500 in chips and a guy sits down and immediately buys in for 8 large. He sits down with towering stacks of chips while not playing a single hand and you either feel intimidated by this or you look at it as a potential target. I looked at is as free money. Being that this is what got me to this table in the first place. Someone else money from the 8/16 rush I was on. (see Pt. 3).

It’s getting a little competitive around the table and people are calling $100 and $200 dollar raises. Nice pots are being built a d drug by winning hands. You also know at this point that if someone stays in a hand to the river and they show down, you knew who was going to win the hand. Point being, learn about the other players at the table. Don’t get in a tangle with them if you are on a draw, because he already made his hand if he is paying for the river card. He didn’t need it to help him.

Theme:
Hero to Zero

Button is to my left.
Cards fly.
Preflop UTG leads out with $100 bet
5 callers including me
Button Folds
SB Raises $500
BB Reraises $1,000
2 Fold
I call with pocket K’s
SB Calls
”Tiny” (a player that has been at the table for the past 3 days that stands about 7 feet tall tipping the scales at a solid 400 lbs, I nick named him Tiny and have pretty much everyone else calling him the same thing, including the dealers) Calls the bet. He’s also going along in the spirit of having fun with his new nickname.

Flop comes KKA
I spontaneously squirt in my pants because I just flopped Quads and we know how I love Quads.
SB Bets $500
BB raises $1,000
Tiny Calls
I call figuring I’m going to let these guy build me a MONSTER pot that I can’t get away from nor can I lose with Quad Kings.
Turn comes 6
SB bets $1500
BB Calls which surprised me.
Tiny checks out
I Raise All In with about $6500. (two racks of greens and a stack of blacks and a bunch of reds)
SB Calls which now has me baffled to no end, however this is the guy who just sat down an hour ago with 8 large for his buy in, so I don’t put him on the K’s (obviously as I have two of them and the other two are on the board), but perhaps the A/6 made him, but I figure he is just stupid. So, bring it on! I didn’t expect to get your chips, but go ahead and send them. I got Quads
BB asks for a count on me. Catching me off guard at first however I try and play it cool as to figure he’s playing a strong card, and possibly trying to get a read on me when I count off. I counted out the $6500 (and some change) and he, with a “matter of fact notion” calls. Now this seriously worries me. After I’ve figured out that SB is stupid and put him on the A/6, I’m thinking that BB must have an Ace at this point, and is betting into me with Aces full of Kings, which I would call as well and would be the right play. When have you ever seen A’s full of K’s get crushed? Or, (there in an OR in this scenario) he could be eating the other end of the stupid sandwich that SB is munching on.
We flip over, and SB flips first. BB and I are looking at each other and both semi waiting for SB to flip over. He does, and proudly announces “I got 2 pair with a kicker”
SB turns over Q/6 off. I’m stunned. He should have mucked his hand and kept eating more stupid sammich.
BB and I turn over. I flip may K’s and say to BB “Good call, but you’re gonna have to beat Quad K’s to take the pot down”
He says and I quote: “Shit!! Shit shit shit!!! I’m gonna need some help. I got Aces full”
Now, for what seemed like an hour, he and I are starring each other down like we are in the O.K. Coral getting ready to draw our pistols out. I of course have a smile on my face, while he says to the dealer, “Like I said, I’m gonna need some help”
Waiting, Waiting, Waiting,
Burn one
Waiting, Waiting, Waiting,
Like slow motion the card came off the top of the deck and slowly made its way down to the felt. I’m getting ready to launch out of my seat and celebrate this MONSTER pot, won with flopped Quads, the conversation I’m going to have with my wife about this kick ass hand, and about 900 other things that can go through your mind in a matter of 1.736455 seconds time.
River, Bullet!
I am in utter shock. Like nothing I’ve ever felt in my life before. Absolute shock.
I stand up, put my hands down on the rail and start looking at this friggin huge pot, the board and my quads that were just beaten by quads.
Gong from 900 things rushing through my head in 1.736455 seconds, to now what seems like slow motion, I stare in amazement at the board for about 30 seconds.
I then realize something that could be FAR more valuable than the $25,000 pot I just lost.
BAD BEAT!
I start jumping up and down as though I won a pot that was 10 times bigger yelling “BAD BEAT!! BAD BEAT!!!! BAD BEAT JACKPOT!!! I HIT THE MUTHERFUCKING BAD BEAD JACKPOT!!! WOOOOWHOOOO!!!!”

This of course brings the poker room manager over along with about ½ the people that were in the poker room up to the rail of this upstairs section. All the while I’m yelling “Bad beat, bad beat” he is walking up to the table shaking his head in a “No, No, No” fashion, but not saying anything.

He comes over and looks at the board, the dealer explains to him that I had quad Kings beaten by quad Aces.
I of course am at this point yelling “Gimmie my check! Gimmie my bad bead check, come on!!! That’s Jay Ayyy Esss Eeee Ennn… Ess Tee Are You Tee Tee… Strutt.. “

The poker room manager after a few minutes of random activity informs me that he is very, very, VERY sorry in that there isn’t anything he can do for me for a bad beat.. and I quote: “The Belagio doesn’t have a bad beat jackpot”

You thought you’ve seen Hagar on tilt?
Hagar was in Disneyland!!!!

I know, shocker, at that point, I decided to call it a night. That was my entire chip stack other than a wad of cash in my pocket. Walking back to the entrance, with my backpack on my shoulder collecting my thoughts, I came to this conclusion:
The scrubs at the Palm’s $2/5 NL table and the dopes at the Belagio $8/16 table (see Pt. 3) got me there. They funded my way on that table. I played on their money. I played my “A” game against some of the best players I’ve ever been up against, in some of the largest cash pots I’ve ever played for. And, in sitting down there for $2500, I shoved in for $6500 with quads. $6560 to be exact. How could you not shove with quads? That’s tripling up. Tripling up from my buy in on to that table which was essentially free to begin with. I met one of the most respected players that I will ever meet at a table, and I had a fantastic time. At the end of the night (now 6AM in the morning) I ended up loosing a hand. But in the loss of that hand, I gained 6500 pounds of experience, and excitement, that of which I couldn’t have bought for twice the amount that I get to take with me. And at the end of the day, Vegas will still be there. I’ll be back in that poker room, hell, probably in a few hours, after I get a drink and some sleep and rub one out. So I’ll just have to play the same game and get back on that table. My chips are there, they are just on the other side of the table for the time being.
 

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Are you fucking shitting me? :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Please, please, PLEASE tell me you made that whole story up. :eek: :eek: :eek:

I know I'm not the only person in the world to lose to a one outer, but jesus fucking christ - Quad Kings, called by 2 players, and rivered by a one outer?. And no bad beat JP? WTF? :!: :!: :!:

I would quit poker forever if I lost a hand like that for that kind of dough. TILT would not begin to describe my reaction. :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

OMG I can see it now - "Finally, a pay day. The kind of pay day that erases all those other rediculous beats and suckouts. The one that validates 'the long run'." 8) 8) 8) Then BOOM. :x :x :x Sorry sucker, you're on the rail now. :cry: :cry: :cry: I couldn't take it. Not for $6500. I wouldn't care where the money came from.

You can't be serious.......
 
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Oh Quads!!! I almost had a heart attack reading that. I would have just dropped dead right there when that ace flipped over. I would have been cussing like a sailor all the way to the ground too. I would have had to make up words to curse the poker gods!!!

I am glad to read that you have a good view on it all. Budda would be proud of your appreciation for the experience. Thanks for sharing that with us. That is the most excitement I have had all week!!! (sorry Daddy).

-Heather :p
 

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I love the story even though it ended with a bad beat. I do disagree with the whole playing with their money theory because once you win the money in my opinion it is now yours, and the $6,500 could have gone for many a purchase, for example to build 32 new tables?????

I do like your attitude of amounting it to a learning experience and one hell of a ride.

That is a frickin' story to cherish for the rest of your poker life and should bring many an "aaarrrrgghghhh", "oooohhhhhhhh", "no fuckin way" from the people you tell it to.

Your my hero ferris!
 

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Wow Quads! That's too bad! All I could say is a Clintonesque, "Ah feel yer pain!"

If it makes you feel better, I will share some bad beat stories with you. My intention is not to one up you (and I don't think I could do that anyway on your hand.) Firstly, I have played probably over 2000 hours of casino poker I have never been on either end of the bad beat jackpot, or even share a part of the jackpot when someone on the table won. Although I have 4 hands that could have qualified, there wasn't a BB jackpot for the game I was playing.

Hands 1 I had Aces full and lost to quads 5's at Commerce Casino (L.A.) in a 10-20 HE game where they have BBJ up to 5-10 limit but not 10-20 (they pay any aces full beaten by 4 of a kind at that time).

Hand 2 is similar: Aces full beaten by quads (I believe it was 5's also) at the 3-6 game at Silver Fox on Stockton Blvd. Again, no BBJ.

Hand 3 was also at the 10-20 at Commerce: I was in the middle position with 66 and limped and the button raised. Only the BB and I called. Flop comes 668. BB checked. I checked my quads. Button checked also. Turn: 8, BB checked again, I bet button called. BB folded. River: 2, I bet . Button raised. I 3-bet, Button 4-bet (of course, heads up there is no limit on the raises). I just called the his bet, knowing full well I was beaten (If the river came a big card he would've gotten maybe one more raise from me.) Sure enough, he had 88. I shook it off and won about $150 for that session. Thice, no BBJ.

Hand 4 was at the Silver Fox 3-6 about 4 or 5 years ago (and this is probably the best hand I have played so far in my life): I had 33 in the middle position in an unraised pot. I believe the flop came down something like 5d-3s-2s and I think 3 or 4 players called 1 bet each. Turn was the case 3 and the BB (who is a decent player, and BTW I saw him playing in the 10-10-20 NL game at Lucky Chances in Colma a few months ago when I played 9-18 over there) bet, I raised with quads and 2 other players dropped. BB repops and I made it 4 bets. River was 5s and BB came out with a bet. Given the amount of action we both put in on the turn and the manner he put in the bet. Again, like Hand 3 I had a feeling I was the silver medalist (I figured him for quad 5's). So I JUST CALLED and flipped over my hand, which stunned the other players at the table. Well, BB didn't have 55 but had 6s4s for a straight flush so it was the same difference. The rest of the table still couldn't believe why I didn't go to a raising war at the river with quads and that hand was talked about for the rest of the session. I guess the consolation is that I loss the minimum on the river. Although in theory I could've saved 6 chips by mucking my quads, although how many of you would have the guts to do that? Just my luck, no BBJ.

Well, Quads, I have never lost more than $1100 on a session of poker so I really feel sorry for you, especially you were almost guarantee to win quite a bit of money on your quad K's after the flop. If you were in a pot limit game I would serious consider there was some collusion because of the action of the SB with such a strong board (i.e. he was in cohoots with the BB to jack up the pot so the pot limit bets can get bigger) but since it is a NL game you could bet whatever you like so it is less likely. There is a possibility you got cold-decked but you will never know in this case.

I am eager to hear the rest of your Vegas saga and hopefully you came out pretty even for the trip.

Better luck this Sat. Except when I am in the hand with you, of course.
 

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Boy Tom, didn't know you have that many hours of experience under your belt. What the heck are you doing at low-limit home games? You don't have to answer that question, I can guess why you are part of the group. I like that you are a seasoned player relative to most of the group and that you find value in the fun that is our home games.
 

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As long as the bad beats are pouring in (well...as much "pouring" as happens on this forum), I'd like to point y'all's attention to http://www.riveredagain.com.

Quads, on that site is another story of a guy that had quad Kings lose to aces. I thought that I would never have the opportunity to meet someone who got that royally f*ed at the table. It's an honor to know you man...I'm sorry that it happened to you, especially after your experience with Mr. Dan Harrington.

The twodimes poker hand analyzer (http://twodimes.net/poker/) says that you were a 95.5% favorite on the flop and then a 97.7% favorite after the turn.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I appreciate everyone’s comments on the bad beat and how much it sucked, as yes, it really did. But I wanted to make a comment to BIG Kahuna in regards to the money thing.

One thing I learned very early on while there and playing at higher stakes tables and in the NL games, was something very very similar to our BYOC games.

I would lose a hand or get rivered, or have a strong pocket pair that I bet that would end up getting folded to a guy who made his straight or flush, or 10/Q two pair, where my KK was no good, etc. etc. etc. and I was finding that I was getting bitter about losing these hands, more so bitter that I lost that chunk of money. And I'd immediately go on tilt for the next few hands or even an orbit or two trying all I could to work it back. Thinking in the back of my mind, "OK, I'm on the $9/$18, I paid two bets all the way to the turn and folded. I'm out $108 bucks, I gotta get that back" or something similar with what ever table I was on. I was relating every hand to dollars and cents.

Now here is what changed it for me.
They are just chips. That’s all they are, they are chips. Little red ones, green ones, black ones, and at one point I have a couple of yellow ones. I never let myself (rather I FORCED myself NOT to) look down and do a count of chips and equate that to dollars. I knew how many chips I sat down with and how many chips I wanted to feel comfortable to start tangling with people in a pot. And when I lost the concept of the dollars associated with the amount of chips, my game changed dramatically. I don’t know that I can explain this in any manner that will make sense, but that was as simple as it is. Chips were chips. That’s all they were.

I was working to build a chip stack, not a dollar stack. So with that, when I cashed out of a table, I simply would look at them as someone else’s chips that I won for playing strong cards. And now what ever I am up from my initial buy in, I’ve now been given the opportunity (by the other scrubs at the tables) to play another game, and better yet, a higher stakes game. Sure, when I was up that night at the Belagio, should have I bounced out and cashed out for 2 racks of greens, a stack of blacks, and a load of red. That would have been sweet! I’ll be the first one to tell you. That would have made a few mortgage payments and bought baby some new shoes and put a few steaks on the table, not to mention the freak show lap dance it would have hooked up at the “Crazy Horse Too�. But I was there to have fun and gamble with SJ and went down there on the absolute last minute. (3PM Friday I decided to take the 8PM flight down)

But, I lost a hand. And I have to look at it as though, I lost a nice hand. Does it suck… sure, it sucks more than sweet sally on nickel night at the bunny ranch. But if I start (now or then) thinking about the money that was in the chips, I go back on tilt. So I take away from that as experience that someone else doesn’t have that I was able to get. Experience that someone else will pay 6500 dollars out of their pocket that I didn’t have to. Someone else bought it for me.

And like I said, at the end of the day, Vegas will still be there. And so will the dopes at the tables.
Southwest flies there nonstop just about every other hour, badabingbadabang.
.
 

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Thats a great story Quads. Geeze though. Pt 3 is shortly arriving?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Yes, part three in being put together now. I need to confirm some stuff with SJ in my notepad where I didn't get very good notes and am a little foggy on some details.

Part Three will be earlier that day which started at the Mirage (NL for SJ and I) then SJ went to the $15/30 table, then we both ended up at the Palm's and later moving to the $9/18 table at Belagio. This was an amazing rush of cards.
 

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Your approach to gambling and money is the way it has to be. If you can afford the stakes your playing for (and of course, you shouldn't play above your affordability level), you have to temporarily forget how much the chips are worth. While the game is on, you're right, they're just chips - try to get a bigger stack. It's not easy to get that mindset, but it's absolutley critical especially if you're moving up in stakes (say from 3/6 - 6/12) - it's all about number of bets, not that they're $6 or $12.

I was thinking about your hand last night and I started to think about how much money I'd have to have to consider putting that much money at risk (not so much the big turn bet - that's a given - I'm talking about the money to sit down at that table to begin with). I couldn't come up with a number that I'd likely ever have. That's just me.

My attitude about gambling, is that if I can walk away with some kind of win, it's been a good night/weekend/session. If I'm on a gambling trip and I happen to hit a relatively hot start, I immediately take my original stake and a little profit and sock it away and then go have fun with the rest of the profit and that's it. I'm leaving here ahead no matter what hapens from here on out. I guess if I had a monster night or two at the limits I'm comfortable with, I might take some of that profit and take a run at a BIG game.

But that's probably the only way I'd have the nuts to do that. I just feel too stupid when I try to get a little greedy and lose a big chunk of money. I always think of the ways I could have put that money to "better" use. In some ways, I wish I had the carefree attitude that "it's only money". In other ways I'm very glad I do not.

For me, poker is about entertainment - I enjoy the challenge of it. Winning is way more fun than losing, but it's just that - winning. The money is just a scorekeeper. That's why I can play just as seriously for $5 as I would for $500. I can experience the thrill of competition without needing to risk large sums of money. Yes - the competition tends to get stiffer as you play for more money, so that would be my sole motivation for playing for higher stakes. Sure having a monster payday from having a great night at higher stakes would be great, but I would cherish the victory more than the dollars.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Yes, Hagar, that’s very true! And this is something that you and I agree on 100% (I know, shocker!!)
Now don’t get me wrong and think that I have this "surplus" of cash to go play these high stakes games and can bank roll a no limit table, (as I don't) but when I was there, I was there to play cards. And that was one of the best times I’ve ever had in my life while playing cards. I started at the lower limits and built my way up.

Sure, hindsight, I should have taken 2 or three times my bankroll I took down there ($500) and stuff that in my pocket, but I was totally and completely feeling the rush of fun while playing. I as well wouldn’t take several thousand dollars down and immediately sit down at the NL table. I like the idea of playing on someone else’s money, so I’d be willing and able to sit at the 8/16 or even 6/12 and double that up a couple of times, which then gets me to the higher stakes tables.

Like you said, and that is most important. It’s two bets. It’s not $12 or $20 dollars. It’s two bets.
And I like you, do this for the challenge, the fun and the entertainment, not for a living.
 

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I will start my reply to Quad's comments about my post by saying this is an issue I somewhat disagree with him on and yet I still love the little punk!

While I do agree that having a mentality at the table that allows you to separate the "real money" from "only chips" mentality is definitely a positive when it comes to the psychology of playing good poker, bottom line is at the end of the day, it is real money. I think this matters more if you do it for a living and you actualy keep books on your play to see that you are actually charting your play based on the long term and not that you just had a good night.

The best of both worlds would be if you can have that mentality of "only chips" when it matters most but also be fiscally responsible for the money that you win from other people and really get that it is now your money and when the chips are converted, the money actually means something. Again, I think this would matter more to someone who needs to pay their bills with the chips they win in a pot and that is also why you see alot of maneuvering in tourneys and deals made etc. because bottom line is the amount of money you can extract at the end of the day. I have a hard time getting into the whole "this is for entertainment" theory sometimes because those who say that usually seem to worry the most if they lost at the end of the night. If it is for entertainment only, potentially losing $150 a week for the entertainment of playing the game seems a bit costly but who am I to tell anyone what or how they should spend their money.

The best way I know how to not let it effect me is if I mentally say to myself, I am bringing $150 tonight with the risk of losing it in order to double it. I believe as long as you are willing to lose what you bring or consider it an investment to obtain something greater, you can gain mental edge. When you do start thinking at the table that this bet equals a night out with my wife or something, you are in trouble.

My original point in commenting about the money in your situation was not to say that it should have effected your play because you were willing to invest that $6,500 to win $20,000, and you got your money in with the best hand which is all we can ever ask for. The difference I saw was that you were still calling the money that you used to enter the table "their money" when I disagree and say at that point you are actually playing with your money.....moeny you actually won and is yours to do with what you would..........which at that point was to play baby!

I believe we are basically saying the same type of thing in a different way aside from that one little point of once you win money and cash out, it is now your money and is no longer other people's money to play with.

Now, I hope to make some of "your" money "my" money in our next game together.
 

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Well said JF. No, just stating an opinion about my take on the money issue of gambling.

If anything, I would not have the balls Quads had for #1: being in that game in the first place, #2: playing the way he did on that table before he took the bad beat.

I admire him for taking the chances he did and for getting into the big games that some of us may never get a chance to play in.

I have enough salt to rub into him when we are at the table together.......doesn't phase him anyways.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I'm sure we are saying the same thing... and I echo his other thought about what you are willing to risk. That's why I always say: "You can't lose what you don't put in the middle. But you can't win much either."
 

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OK - there's just something I gotta know.

Let's say you decided to wait til the river to announce your power. Would you have shoved (or called a shove) when the 2nd ace hit the river?

I gotta believe you would have (I don't know how I couldn't have assuming I was actually in that spot to begin with), but it does make your hand not necessarily the nuts any more.

Just curious.....
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
You know, I honsetly don't know. I almost think I would have shoved and or called someone elses shove on the river being that I had quads with an Ace kicker. (hey, my kicker beat SB's kicker). Unless I had a read on the guy or had some inclination that he had pocket aces.

It's hard to say.

I'll tell you this, It would have taken an act of god to get me to lay the hand down.

But then I think about this a little more and think, if I just sat down with 5 large of my hard earned dollars, would have I shoved?
 
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