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Discussion Starter #1
Aces with no kicker?

In a cash game, No Limit, semi agressive table, couple of calling stations, couple of decent players, couple of rocks. $150 dollar pot, Three people in the hand. P1- Check, P2 - bet $20, P3 calls 20, P1 then raises another $100. The board is AA27J

Call, Raise or or Fold? You are holding A/3 and you have *NO* read on the raiser or the P2.

Love to hear your comments and thoughts, and I'll share what happened at show down.
 

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So are you player 3? The big issue to me here is what P2 does. Did he call the $150 raise? If so, you need to FOLD. He was the original better, even though P1 did a check raise. Assuming no flush draw on board, I would be comfortable is saying that P2 has an A, probably with a mid kicker. No full house, or he probably would have bet more $, since most people at this level will bet their hand for value on the river.

Also important, what was the action on the flop and turn like? Most people won't bet that flop if they hold a big Ace, waiting for the turn for more action. IMO, if P1 bet the turn, I would fold. Otherwise, if P2 doens't call the river, I would call. If P2 calls, though, your A probably isn't good (When P2 calls I think it makes P1's chances of having an Ace low to none. I would then put P1 on either a bluff or the small chance that he's holding JJ and caught the miracle river.
 

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Wow - tough to be "in the moment" with your description. I'm feeling that you're telling the story from P2's shoes. I agree with Ender that the play throughout the hand helps to get a better feel.

Info that would help (even if I get no read (ie internet player playing his first orbit)):

-Player positions relative to button
-Who was driving the betting to build the $150 pot?
-Is P3 going to call? (best guess)
-Stack sizes?
-New to the table?
-Preflop raises?

Very tough situation. (Why do you think that all the "experts reccomend staying away from Ax type hands?) Could easily be:

-Bluff
-Full house (A2, A7, AJ, 22, 77, JJ)
-Flush (you don't mention if there is a flush possibility)
-Bigger A (any kicker bigger than 6 takes the pot away from you)
- 2 pair? (Jx? giving him AAJJx)

Assuming P3 is likely to fold, (an obvious call from P3 gets me out - I can't expect to be ahead of both players) I would have to go completely on my gut read of the raiser - if he seemed like a bluffing type person I'd have to call - if he seems like a solid no nonsense player - I'd respect the raise and fold. The kicker is just too bad to call this bet ($100 into a $290 pot). If the other A is out, the best you hope to do is chop to A4, A5, A6 and lose to any other kicker.

My initial reaction, with no other input, is that P2 is behind. The $100 c/r feels like a value bet hoping for a call - it's a pretty severe underbet of the $190 pot at that point.

Other consideration: If I'm up a bunch ($500+) I probably make this call or maybe even call him all in depending on his stack size.

If I'm not up a bunch, I'd have to be pretty sure (80%+) that he's trying to make a move.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I was P3.
The betting up to this point was decent, hence the pot size.
Not knowing what P2 was going to do after me, (either call or fold, not likely raise as he never reraised the entire time at the table) I took a long time to think about this, either to call P1's $100 raise or come over the top and get him off his had. I did have a surplus of chips (about 600 in front of me) There were way too many ways that the hand could have gone. Granted a set beats two pair, but someone out there with another ace (12% chance I think) and having their other card paired on the board for a full house was a very tough decision. There was no flush on the board.

Called time and went back through the betting in my head, who came out pre flop (I limped all the way through the hand playing a little conservative with essentially a naked ace) who bet and check on the turn and so on. I limped most of the way seeing if I could pair up and make a full house and then get aggressive.

I ended up laying it down.
P2 called the $100 raise.
Now I'm semi bitter. As there is a nice amount of chips in the middle and we know how I love pot odds......
Once the showdown happened, I was about to snap.
K/7 took the hand. (two pair)

Playing a short term game, I could have gotten in the tangle with them. In the long term game, I think I made the better decision to get out of the hand without a kicker and the multiple ways the hand could have gone which would have put me in a lot of trouble, had I gotten upside down in the hand.
 

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IN your first post, P3 acted after P2, so I'm a little confused how you can be P3 and worried how P2 was going to react.

...he never reraised the entire time at the table..
You did have at least a little read on "P2". This does help a little when making this decision.

Like I said earlier without better betting patterns (who did what throughout the hand), it's really hard for us (out here in the bleachers) to put anyone on any kind of hand. If your gut told you to get away from your hand, you did the right thing. "Results" tell you that you made a mistake, but without a much better read, it's hard to be too cinfident with that kicker.

Were you driving the betting? If yes, good laydown. If no, why not? If I had been in the hand with that crappy kicker (button, blinds), I would have been playing it pretty aggressive early on to see where things stood - this is really not a good slowplay hand, as I guess you found out...

At least you got some info out of the deal and the calling station paid for it for you. What in the hell did he have?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Sorry. It was an account of the action, not who acted when.

Like I said, I was not driving up the betting. I did raise post flop and was called around. The turn I checked and called the bet.

P2 showed the ass end of the two pair.
 

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Ya know - as I'm reading this, I can't help but think to myself "Fuck - I would have either lost a TON of money or made a TON of money on this hand" cuz there is no way in hell I could lay it down - That being said, this is one big reason why I feel my game isn't as strong as the likes of the BYOC crew. :(
 

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Sorry. It was an account of the action, not who acted when.
No problem - it's just much easier to put people on hands when I can understand who did what when.

So, you raised on the flop and got 2 callers. It's real hard to like your hand at this point unless you absolutly know the other players to be fish (of course I'm making the assumption that the board came Flop:AA2 Turn:7, River:J - this also matters). If this is true, and you slowed down after the flop raise, you opened yourself up for a steal attempt.

Again, the evils of Ax; you either gotta play 'em real strong or get away from them.

Would you have played the hand differently if you had say A9 or AT?
 

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This is a hard situation. Turns out you would have won, but w/o being in the situation, based on your recall I probably would have laid it down. Ace-rag is such a hard hand to play. In NL, I almost always lay it down (unless blind), and sometimes I'll play it if it's suited. Seems like the worst situation (flopping an A) always happens, then you're left wondering who's got the other A and kicker. When AA comes, I'd be a little less hesitant, but still... that's a hard one. IMO, stay away from Ace-rag. Play A10 or higher, unless suited. At least that way you can flop JQK.

-David "Kid"
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Would you have played the hand differently if you had say A9 or AT?
I would have made the turn and river (more so the river) pretty expensive for them to see it with a T. But again, at the river (come showdown), a T is a rather mild kicker and I would have been in the same debate I was in, which was, who paired their ace and how hard do I press my set with no kicker.
 

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I probably would have ended up paying the A with higher kicker off otherwise I am with Mod, I would not have folded unless I was dealing with the rocks of the table at that point and especially if the post was raised pre-flop.
 

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[quote:1kivocjx]Quote:
Would you have played the hand differently if you had say A9 or AT?
I would have made the turn and river (more so the river) pretty expensive for them to see it with a T. [/quote:1kivocjx]

I'm thinking that had you played the turn stronger, you wouldn't have faced the dilema on the river - a strong bet here probably gets you the pot right then.

I won't play an Ax unless I feel like I can treat it as I would an A9/AT type of hand (bet with it, don't call with it). If the situation feels like I can't do that, then I release it. (Raise or fold - sound familliar?)

The reason for my question has this point behind it: If you can't play your ace strong, then why would you play it at all? (No need to answer, just something to think on.)
 

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Discussion Starter #13
If you can't play your ace strong, then why would you play it at all? (No need to answer, just something to think on.
I feel compelled to answer.
I flopped a set of aces. Drawing to a paired up hole card along with the implied odds I was getting right out of the box kept me in the hand, additionally, it wasn't terribly expensive to stay in, flop, turn and river.
 

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IMO, you played it very much like it would be played in a limit game:

Limp, push, backoff (when there was more interest than you wanted) call, runaway (except that you probably would have been more willing to call or raise on the river if it had been limit)

BTW, I'm not saying you did anything wrong, I'm just expressing my preferences on Ax (and you did ask for discussion).
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I don't take it the wrong way.
I was interested in hearing people thoughts.
I played it the way I thought was right at the time based on the information I had. Who knows what I'll get into next time.

Did I tell you about when I laid down A/K suited in the same game pre-flop? (serious, I have witnesses)
 

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Hey Good Folks,
Quads, you say it was 12% chance of someone having the other ACE. I am not so sure you made the right decision to lay them down. You said " you raised pre-flop" right? Between 3 players and the board shows up AAx,7, J. And you had something like $600 in front of you. The bet on the river was $100 , I would've called no hesitation. Figuring if I lose to a higher kicker I am still up $500 or so. That's Just me though. Me and my stupid ass I would've probably would've raised the fucker just to see where his hand stands. Again that's me though.
 
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I would of thought I was beat at that time if I represented the ace on the turn and had callers and then the heavy raise on the river.

If I didn't represent the ace on the turn and noone else did neither and then heavy bets and raises on the river came to me, then you got them right where you want them...call or reraise.
 
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