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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Feeling like perhaps I was past my recent funk, I took a trip up to Jackson Thursday afternoon to see what was happening. I got up there at about 12:45, had some lunch and was finally seated in the one 1/2 game that was running at about 1:15. ( 20 minutes later they opened up a second 1/2 game and there was actually a third 1/2 game going by about 3:30.)

I had ben watching the game while waiting, and there were really no awful players in the game. The first hand I happened to catch featured a guy snapping off Aces with 89o and he was in one of those grooves where he was ripping folks apart with anything he chose to play. He wasn't making a lot of great decisions, but it wasn't like he was playing every hand. I managed to stay out of his way for the couple hours we were both at the table.

I sat practicing my mucking skills for about 3 orbits. Reasonable raises ($12-$17 is the "reasonable" raise in this game) were having little affect on thinning fields pre-flop and they were very regular, so it was one of those wait for premium (at least near premium) hands to see a flop. I tried a few limps on pretty marginal hands, but was raised out before the flop every time. I finally looked down and found JJ (Great! This is the hand I get to go to war?) and pumped it up to $12 and got 5 or 6 callers after not seeing one flopin 30 hands. (Ugh.)

The flop managed to hit J high and fairly uncoordinated, something like J42 rainbow. A kid in early position opens for $15. There were several people to act behind me, so I felt a "weak just calling" play was in order hoping to get a couple of other callers to add to the pot and I did get 2 other callers. The turn was an awful looking 3. (There were few cards that would have given me any cause for concern on this flop and that sure as shit was one of them. The kid had the sense to check. I was done seeing any more cards and shoved my remaining $68. The two caller quickly got out of the way, but the kid went into the tank. He was clearly unsure where he was at and I tink my sudden "spring to life" confused him a little. He half mucked/half called about 12 times before he finally put me on a bluff and called with his last ~$40. He flipped up JQ and was drawing dead. And then he left.

That hand doubled me up, so I was feeling that things were gonna work out. For awhile anyway. I didn't know it at this point, but I was just about to go into the freezer for most of the rest of the session. A few hands later, I managed to get AQ in late pos and raised it up to $12 and got a few callers, including "Mr. Shove" to my right. This guy just loved to shove and was taking down a lot of pots uncontested. I really don't think he really knew what he was doing, but it was working. The flop missed me bad (662), but I still fired a good sized bet (something like $40) figuring to take it down right there. Mr Shove went all-in. WTF could you have possibly called a PFR that fit that board after calling a raise? Having nothing, I Hollywooded a bit trying to figure out what he could have possibly played and finally mucked "in confusion". (After watching him play for several hours, I'm pretty sure he did have me beat.)

That hand cost me 1/2 a stack, but I was still in decent position. Fast forward to about 6:45. "Would somebody please open the freezer door?" Absolutlely nothing for 4 1/2 hours. I tried a few limps, called a few small raises when I manages to get some hope like AK, AJ in the blinds. Saw a couple flops with smallish connectors, but I just could not hit a board. BIg cards? The flop came 8 high. Little cards? The board came suited broadway. Unreal. I did manage to drag a couple of small pots during the freezer part, but could never get my teeth into any of the big ones. I got KK, raised it and got 4 callers. Flop brought an Ace, I was bet into by a young solid/timid player who was NOT putting a move on me and had to get out. (Two players had aces against me.) I finally managed to bleed most of my chips away. I put another $80 on the table at about 6:15, figuring I wanted to get some bullets when my cards, which were surely due.

I got an AJs in EP limped and called a raise by the same timid/solid kid in the hand above. The flop came Q high. He was in the SB amd checked. I checked through as did everyone behind me. FLop blanked (luckily) and he fired a smallish bet ($20 or so). FOr a half a tick, I was considering making a play. I almost made the mistake of putting him on nothing, but managed to cut that signal off before it reached my hands. I mucked. Turns out he flopped top set and I was drawing dead. Wish that radar would have worked on the next hand.

I got ATo in BB. Mr. Shove raised and ther were 2 or 3 other callers. I knew better, but boredom was getting the better of me and I called. 9 times out of 10, I don't make that call, but still feeling a little "due" and tired of getting pushed off 90% of my limps/blinds, I called. Flop came AQ4. I did the standard "see where I am" play and opened for $30. Mr. Shove did his act and shoved his $350 in. There was maybe $70 in the pot including my opener (he had been doing this all night) and it just didn't feel "right". The 2 or 3 between us folded and by the time it got to me, I had talked myself into putting him on KK. HE doesn't want any action. So I pushed my remaining $80 in and he flipped up AQ for top 2. I was drawing nearly dead. Needed runner/runner. HIt a J on the turn, so I had 4 outs, which of course didn't come. I was done, nice hand, GL, yadda, yadda, yadda. Not pissed or anything. Just bummed and frustrated.

I was really angry with my play on the last hand. Clearly tilting. I made a bad call preflop, I got the information that I wanted when he raised the flop but I refused to "listen". If he would have raised a "reasonable amout" I would have been long gone. But his shove, put me on the wrong track. If I believed for a second that he knew why that worked, I'd give him lots of credit for out-playing me, but he's pretty new to NL and I think he's just enamored with winning pots by making oversizzed bets. WE didn't see a lot of his shove hands, but when we did, he usually had a reasonably strong hand, never a flat out bluff. He lost a few with less than the nuts (straight on a flush board, smaller flush on a flush board) but he never had "nothing" that we saw. Of course I didn't register that until I was on the way home and in hind site, it was an easy fold. My brain had just washed under the table.

Wish I could report about winning a "million dollars last week" like some of you seem to do regularly, but it seems I'm still in my "can't do anything right" funk.
 

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I've never reported that I've won a million dollars!!!
I think the largest one day report is $11,500 by Scooter.

Sometimes I get that NL game at JR, other times I just shake my head.

Don't feel bad. I had a guy who called my 40 dollar bet with A/10s top two pair (flop A/10/4) with ... are you ready? 7/4, and what did the turn and river bring him? running 4's.

Then, the next hand, tries to explain pot odds (while he is not in the hand mind you) to me when I'm counting the pot to fingure where I am in calling a raise. I told him to (please) STFU or I was going to stick my cock in his eye.

Some days I'm solid against a rat fuck n00b field of players, others, they have my number. If I can't beat the poor players, I guess I won't ever win.
 

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IMO, the best way to beat the "rat fuck noob" players is to just not play against them at all. Seriously, I won't play less than 6/12 limit anymore and even 2/5 NL still hooks some fish into the game.

People say that you make the most money off of these players, but I've found that you can make just as much against loose players.

Example, my last 3 days at the 9/18 at Capitol. Over $2000 in like 20 hours. Good steak, yes, but you get endless action on all your hands. I'm tearing that place a new asshole. Good cards, I know, but still...
 

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KNowing I was going to get the calls I did last night, I should have taken your word and headed down to the Capitol.

Not likely I'll be in the Sheep Cock much more. I'm taking this session out of Scooters ass, as he is hte little bitch that wanted to play there cause "it's close to my house..." what ever.

I hate that place right now and I hate JR.

DW NL or higher limit structured game.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
That's all fine and good if you got the BR to tackle them games and you still have to catch a few juicy hands especially against the loose players.

I don't know how you guys have more great sessions than not. I just rarely seem to have sessions where things work out more than not. Sure, I've had a couple of grinder sessions where I managed to keep ahold of some winnings from good solid play, but I rarely have them days where I hit boards like some of you seem to do no matter what cards you hold. I sit there and watch hand after hand looking for a reason that I could have played the crap I threw away and I just never have regrets for pitching the cheese I get save for one or two "if I would have been stupid enough to chase it down to the river it would have hit" hands.

Since playing up there pretty consistently over the last 6 or 7 months, I've had several decent sessions (up 100-200), one reasonably monster session (up 400), several break evenish, and several head beater sessions (most of these have been strung together recently). I know there are swings, but I just don't seem to get a hold of those "build the BR" sessions. And I really wish that I could walk away from a few more sessions (like I did last night) where I could say "I wish I hadn't done this or that", but more often than not I walk away from a poor session wondering why I can't catch a hand, or wondering why I can't catch a break when I do find a hand.

A couple of months ago I lost $400 with KK vs AA. It wasn't bad enough that I ran into that situation (it happens, I know), but it had to be against the one guy at the table who could make it really hurt. Anybody else that day and it would have been a flesh wound. What are the odds that that matchup will occur between 2 specific players? Gotta be astronomical. This was extreme, but that kind of shit just seems to occur over and over.....

(I know, boo frickin hoo :cry: )

Sorry for the whine, I'm just frustrated to all hell right now..........
 

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Honestly, (don't take this the wrong way)

As an observer:
I think it is the $1/2 NL game and the players in that game. I honestly thing that the limits you play and the players that are drawn into that game.

I also think that you could stand to loosen up a touch. I'm not advocating you play nearly the amount of pots that I do, but I'd consider or try a few hundred hands a little looser and a little more aggressive in your draws and starting hand selection and working position in every possible case.

Again, just my though. I think you have a very strong and very tight game. Which is a good starting ground, but in NL, I think there are many opportunities to capitalize on aggressiveness. I admire your game in the sense that you are very tight. Your hand selection is very high. I at times wish I could play that solid of a tight game. Others have told me they wished they could incorporate my style of game into their game. So it's a trade off. What you don't have you want, what you want, you don't have.

I think (and you would know better than I) that you get broke more times at the $1/2 NL game than you would at a higher limit game (such as 6/12, 8/16 or even 9/18). I'm not talking $10/20 NL, but take the $9/18 game at the Capitol, or the $2/3NL game which plays much like a $2/5 $10 bring in at DW, or even the $2/5 $10 bring in at the Eldo. If you figure what you lose at the lower limit / less skilled tables, versus the action and the opportunities at a table with a little higher stake, I think you will see more return on your BR.

I don't have a huge BR, but I've learned this: I'm much much more comfortable and dangerous at a juicy action or higher limit game (such as DW $2/3 or the Eldo NL game) than I am at a $1/2 NL game. I also play many more pots than you, so I see a lot of action, and that may just be part of my game that will never get duplicated by another player. I raise with things and draw to things that I know for a fact, you in your right mind would never do. Am I saying you should? Hells no! but, loosing up a touch, getting away from the $1/2 NL game and a little more aggressiveness might add some +EV.

Now, I clause all of this by saying that the $1/2 or $.50/1 BYOC game doesn't fall into this category. At those limits, we are bringing in good action, great sized pots, with a table of pretty well rounded players. So, it's a different game within BYOC than the untamed public NL game.

Again, just my thoughts, which I don't mean to be critical of your game, or tell you what you are doing wrong, (because I really don't know) but as an observer, that's what comes off the top of my head.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I understand what you're saying and appreciate the input. Right now my focus is trying to find ways to get into more pots. But when you just can't hit a flop, there's no sense in trying to force action. If I could just hook up with a few hands once in a while that don't get pummeled, I'd be fine. Last night I drug exactly 3 pots in about 4 hours. One was the double up with the JJ which I got everything I could out of it. The other 2 were about $30 worth. When I'm geting a steady diet of J3, 92, T5 hands all night, there's just no way to get interested. I thought of trying a few buys pre-flop, but it's funny, everytime I considered it and decided not to try, somebody behind me had some big hand that wasn't going to go away. There's pretty much no amount under $40 raised preflop that won't get called by at least one player, even if the raiser is the guy hasn't seen a flop in the last hour.

And there's just not much chance of buying any pots: I watched a guy flop the nut straight, and give the fool who was in the pot 2 chances to get out. The nut straight was all in and the stupid lucky fool called. The board was KQ9. He had K8. I felt ill watching the lucky fool's runner-runner boat appear.

Fucking rediculous.

I tried to get into a few pots with cards that I know are not appropriate (Kx suited, 56o, 89s etc) but I either got raised off them, missed the flop or couldn't get any reasonable odds to draw. (I chased one Axs flush all night). The time I said "fuck it" and stood my ground (the last hand) was poor judgement and just another lesson to stay "by the book". Watching hand after hand getting taken down by 47, 69, J2...(name it) drives me up the wall, but I just can't seem to find that groove.

Believe me, I want to get up to the next level, but my BR just can't take any big hits. Right now, 3 buys down in a 2/5 game and I'm poker "broke". That's no way to get into a game. There's no way I'd even sit in a 5/10 limit game with my roll. I just gotta get out of this funk.
 

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I agree with both of you guys here. It also really depends on what type of game that you are playing. Example, I love to play NL games, but I have a MUCH stronger limit game, which is what I have been grinding out at lately (9/18.)

I know I'm not as loose as Quads, and I'm also not as tight as Hags... not to say that either way is better. At limit, tight aggressive is really the only way to play for long term expectations. There is a set amounts of hands that you play, giving position and raises, and you shouldn't deviate from that much at all unless there is a hyper aggressive raiser. So I play these hands from these positions, raise when I should, and bet aggressive if the flop is favorable.

NL is totally different... hence why my NL game isn't as strong. It's hard for me to stone cold bluff at a pot with a large bet... I do sometimes, but I still hate seeing it all go away in 1 hand. In limit, your mistakes cost you less, but if you keep making them then you lose in the long run.

Anyway, just my opinion. I think all 3 of us are above the average Sacramento player. Hags I know you don't have the BR to play a larger game, but the way I looked at it was just saving my BR for a couple weeks then jumping into a 9/18 with $600... never really looked back. I think your game would thrive at that limit, especially at loose capitol. Hell, I'm a poor student and I manage ok, and the winning sessions there can be JUICY! Took my date out to Mikuni last night... just thinking about how stupid idiots paid for my James Dean Roll and Sapporo (not to mention tuition & rent) just makes you warm and fuzzy lol

-kid
 

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All of this at the $1/2 NL at JR (examples) correct?
3 buys down in to the $2/5 JR game at $100 or $200 / buy in?
I honestly think it's the $1/2 table there.

I've been thinking on something this afternoon after I replied to your first thread. Let me put it together in my head and try and commit to it a keyboard.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
3 buys down in to the $2/5 JR game at $100 or $200 / buy in?
I wouldn't buy into a 2/5 game with less than $200.

Theoretically, in NL, you can make big enough bets to make others mistakes very painful. But, the catch is that you have to be able to stay ahead when you are ahead for that to be effective. This, wasn't my problem yesterday, but typically, I'll get big bets in with the best of it and then get sucked out (some suck outs are worse than others) or find that an opponent has played rediculous cards that snap off my hand; it's pretty hard to put someone on a 93o after a raise.

Thus far, in my poker "career", I haven't really managed to hit a lot of boards, with or without a solid starter. I have to count on being able to pressure people out of pots early in the hand a great deal of the time I'm trying to drive a hand. I'm not claiming an unusual amount of bad luck (I probably could), but I just have this general feeling of having to outplay old man luck much of the time. I get smoked by flushes way more than I ever hook up with them, often from people playing suited trash. If I flop strong and there's one or two cards that put my hand at risk, it comes, almmost without fail (remember my quad 8s hand the other night?).

With that haunting feeling, any form of loose limit poker (doesn't really matter what limit - if they're loose, the amount of the bet doesn't matter) doesn't appeal to me. You need to run better than cold/bad most of the sesion to have any chance. You need to hit a few draws, flop a few sets have the big pairs stand up, convince folks that they are drawing thin. In my entire life, I've had one reasonably big session playing limit and that night, the cards were just running over me. There was little skill involved - the cards came, I got some action and I got paid. Might as well have been playing blackjack or roulette. Blah, blah, blah. The point I'm slowing getting to, is that I have no interest in investigating a "loose" higher limit game.

I know deep in my soul, that I should be running over that game at Jackson. I had a reasonably good run when I started up there, just didn't get a bunch of the big nights that I feel I should have. I know that they can't keep getting lucky on me forever and I can't keep getting cheese all night forever. I know it. I'm just in a funk right now and the fact that my BR is getting eaten up is making it harder and harder to play with any confidence. My game was solid last night save for the one very bad call I made at the end. I just couldn't get any hands that I could work with. I haven't been able to "play" poker for many sessions; I've been too busy grinding at defending my chips to be able to "play".

And regarding the BR, I'm trying my damndest to play on the money that I "staked" the year with, not pull any more money out of my pocket. I'm trying to "live" (poker-wise) within my BR as if it were "important" money. Maybe that's the problem, but it's my goal for the year (hopefully forever), to not have to pull more money out of my pocket to play poker. One of my personal rules of gambling is to keep losses at a minimal level and part of my discipline is to not keep digging in my pocket every month or two to keep "having fun". (HA!) So when you hear me talking about BR restrictions, you know where I'm coming from.

I guess I just need to lay low for a bit more. I've never figured out what I need to do to get out of a funk (not sure that anyone has), but right now, grinding doesn't seem to be the answer.
 

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What usually helps me get out of a bad run is changing my environment. I know I have a few more places to choose from down here than in sacramento, but Hags maybe you should try another card room for a while. Everytime I get into a "streak" I will usually take a break for a couple days and then go somewhere completely new and try it out and see how I do.
 

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I hear ya man, I hear ya. And trust me, I know how a "funk of cards"* goes.

*reference Quads swearing off poker for life last year after a trip to Reno that seemed to run from about September to December.

*reference Quads swearing off poker this year in (interestingly enough) September while on a terror run of chips in Vegas.

And there is that old poker adage that you just have to play through them, but for god sakes', it's frustrating and can get rather expensive if you stay at the limits your typically play.

My point I was thinking of that I'll mention now is that if you were into that game for 6 bills, that's 2 racks at $9/18 down at Cap. Granted, it's a higher limit game than you typically play, but I honestly think you well in that game, with the type game you play.

The other thing I was going to mention was a structured betting game. I mention it because of the betting limits and not getting broke in a hand or two. You're capped on your loss for one suckout, versus your entire stack.
It's something that I revert back to often when I'm running cold on a game. (ie, down at the Wynn, can't get dick to come together on the NL game, so I'll go sit in the $8/16 game and play the ultra rocky / aggressive game until I get back on my feet with some chips and feeling better about my game.

Think about it. Go grab a beer and rail the $9/18 game down at the Capitol and see what it looks like. I honestly think you would do well in it, and you could easily take effectively the same BR you take the to NL game into that game and do quite well.

Like I said earlier, you have a really solid game, one that I wish I could / would play sometimes, but I also know what it's like to be in a funk.

On the other hand, I have another (last) suggestion. This usually works well for me. Grill up a couple of nice NY strips or Porterhouses, open a bottle of wine, and finish it off with a (another) bottle of wine in the hot tub with the Wife. If the wine sets in (like it should) move to the next step and get a little honey on your stinger ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I honestly think you would do well in it, and you could easily take effectively the same BR you take the to NL game into that game and do quite well.
While that could work, that falls into a "superstition" category. No amount of changing shorts, shirts, seats, tables, card rooms or states makes any difference in the game. It's all relatively random events and if you're in a funk, the funk finds you. In all actuallity, I find that my chances of winning improve once players get to know how tight I generally play, so the more familliar faces I play against, the better chance I have of players not assuming I'm on a bluff. The best part of my sessions (when things are running reasonably) is typically after the table has been the same faces for a while and the only thing I've shown are big hands. When you show nothing but strong hands, you tend to get a little more respect, which in turns opens the door for a little more "play" making. I know the reverse is preached - show a bluff or two and you'll get tons of action on your big hands, but you gotta catch a few hands for this to pay off. That angle just doesn't seem to work for me and I hate starting out in the hole just because I tried to pull a move. Showdowns tend to be the death of me.

I honestly think you would do well in it, and you could easily take effectively the same BR you take the to NL game into that game and do quite well.
As much as that sounds good, I usually plan to risk 2 buys in any given session, that's $200 in the 1/2 game. $200 wouldn't even be enough to sit in the 9/18 game.

I appreciate all the imput and sympathy, just need get this out of my system.
 

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While that could work, that falls into a "superstition" category. No amount of changing shorts, shirts, seats, tables, card rooms or states makes any difference in the game. It's all relatively random events . . . . . .
Don't get me wrong, but I couldn't disagree with you more on this point.
Changing players, changing games, changing locations, and changing play habits I believe go a long way in your game.

I recently read from Daniel Negreanu's blog about how he would get in these funks and the only thing that got him back on track was to play somewhere else, and often some other game. (different limit, limits versus NL, etc.) Change of scene, change of game.

While I like to think that the Michigan ball cap I wear is "good luck", I also know in the back of my head that it doesn't change the cards. It can however change my attitude towards the game, which in NL, is 75% of the game.
 

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Quad's is exactly right. Theres nothing superstitious about changing your environment. Hell some nights I go to 2 or 3 different casinos until I find a game I like (or where my cards are hitting.) I guarantee if you keep playing at JR with the same attitude and the same horrible players your streak is going to continue. It won't hurt one bit to try something different next time you feel like throwing some cards.
 

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Everyone I know says that my play is different when I'm not wearing my UC Davis cap... not sure about that one... I'm usually wearing it just because it's comfortable and I like to be so when I play cards...

Everyone has streaks... do what you have to do to get over the bad ones... whether it be not playing at all or changing the pace of things.

I know I've been on bad runs and I, being all statistical and logical, tend to just play through it the best I can, remembering that in the long run I will beat the games that I play. Don't go higher to recoup your losses (above my skill), and don't go lower to reduce your bad luck (playing with crap players that just frustrate).

As much as we'd all love to think otherwise, poker is just like anything else, random statistics. The chances are always the same, given anything else. In the short run, anything can happen, but in the long run, the better players will win and the worse players will lose.

... of course, that's much easier to say when you just came off of a +$2000 week playing super 9/18 at the capitol... I'll be there tommorow later afternoon seeing if I can continue my good run, if anyone wants to join me... QUADS I know you want a piece of that action!!!!

-kid
 

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I'd love to, but Friday night I made a mortgage payment out of DW, and tonight (Sat) I made another wit ha little extra for some eggs and bacon after the wifey wakes up.

(hence the 5am reply)
 

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Hags,

I got in the same type of slump about 8 months ago. It peaked one night when I went up to Auburn and left $500 in the hole, disgusted with myself. I stopped playing for about 3 weeks. During that time, I watched some poker on TV, listened to other people talk about their trips, and read a book. After the three weeks, I went back into it with a clear mind, and I played good, semi-winning poker. Granted I wasn't really good enough to consistantly win 8 months ago, but I knew I was definately not that bad. At first I blamed it on the cards. Then, I shrugged it off as not being my night. Then, I shrugged it off as not being my month. After my break, I realized that I subconsciously was not playing good poker.

Point being, even if you don't realize it, I can almost guarentee that you're not playing your normal game. You said it yourself, "9 times out of 10, I would not call...." So next time DON'T call. Yes, that wasn't the only factor of the night, but it was a decent sized one for cash, and a huge mental divit. Just take a couple weeks to relax and analize everyone elses play instead of your own, maybe read a book, or just clear your Poker cache.

I have since realized that you will NEVER win in a game you go into expecting to lose, consciously or subconciously.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
"I have since realized that you will NEVER win in a game you go into expecting to lose, consciously or subconciously."

I never start a game that I expect to lose. (In tourneys, I don't really expect to win, but I don't go into it with the mindset of "gonna lose".) When I'm deep in a slump, I actually sit down with the "OK, this is where it starts to turn around" attitude. I never "expect" a big win, especially when I'm slumping, but approach the game with the "expectation" of booking a win or break even, knowing that that will start me out of the slump.

You referenced my one bad play of the session. I knew immediately that it was a tilt move. That is a rare move for me, that I get nailed on a poor play by me, so I can deal with making a mistake or two. The mistake is filed away in the old encyclopedia for futture reference so at least I got a little knowledge out of the ugliness. The mistakes I make always tend to be critical, so it just hurts more when I do make mistakes. Overall my game has been very solid, just not getting any support from the "gods" when I need it. Just gotta work through it.
 
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