[Quads]

First hand in the WSOP.
You're on the button and the action comes to you with raises, it's 5X the BB to go and you look down at Aces. What do you do?

 

[Deuces Empty]

how many raises, how many people in the hand?

 

[Quads]

5X the BB is the raises and lets say there are 5 people to you.

 

[Deuces Empty]

I would reraise to try to isloate. If I get pushed all-in, I think it's appropriate to call. It's the begining of the tourney, you're not on the bubble. However, if the initial raiser goes all in and gets a caller, I'm inclined to fold.

 

[Ender]

However, if the initial raiser goes all in and gets a caller, I'm inclined to fold.

Not sure I could do this. I know some experts say that there are situations when you should lay down AA when there is an all-in and a call in front of you, but most of these situations involve final tables when having one of the other 2 players going out helps put you higher in the money w/o risking anything.

I tend to think that I'd have a hard time laying down AA pre-flop even all in against 2-3 other players... maybe if there were like 5 all-in calls before me, then I might lay it down... but against 2 other players you're still over 50% to win against almost any 2 cards... and the ability to triple up would REALLY help float you in the tourney. Just me 2 cents.

-david

 

[Hagar]

Reraising all-in seems risky - especially for the size of the pot. You have the best hand, but it can still come down to pure luck against some knucklehead who would call with TT or JT. I would say a raise of 2-3 times the pot (5*125 = 625 so raise it 1200-1800). If you can get away from a bad flop, you haven't crippled yourself.

This raise amount should be enough to put the raiser to the test and is proportionate with what you expect to gain if everyone mucks. It should at least narrow the field to one maybe two others. Hope for a fortunate flop and tread carefully. Your other Aces are likely out, so you just have to hope that someone doesn't flop a set or 2 pair. The ultimate problem is that your not sure what to be worried about.

I hope to have this problem some day....

 

[partykid707]

ok if anyone thinks about folding pocket aces i think you need to pick another game to play. The only time it can ever ever be considered is if you are 1 or 2 people away from the money and more then 1 person is all in or someone is going to be blinded away within the next couple hands and even then your not playing the correct way to "win." You gotta get your money in when you have the best of it and you cant be scared of bad beats because thats poker.

 

[Hagar]

Tournaments are a unique beast - you have to be a little wise to survive especially in something as big as the Main event.

AA quickly loses it's favorite status when you start getting mulitple callers. I believe (not sure here) it's only about a 30% favorite heads up against a random hand. Your favorite status diminishes quickly with each additional opponent.

Do you really want to walk away from the Main Event with nothing but a bad beat story to tell for the next 100 years about getting Aces cracked on the first hand? Why in the world would you shove 10,000 to win 600? If I jack it big and get a heads up shove, I likely sack it up and get 'em in. More than one all-in and I'm waiting for another opportunity. It's a very long tournament and counting on luck for your first hand completely negates any chance you have to use any skill.

It's not about being "scared of bad beats", it's all about picking your spots. I'm not saying you run for the hills; play 'em strong, but with a little consideration of what the situation is. I'm much more likely to get all-in with Aces on the bubble than on the first hand unless it's a heads up situation (and I know that Worm has 99 :wink: ).

 

[partykid707]

First off they do not lose there "favorite status with more callers" if there are 3 players and you have more then a 33% chance of winning you are still a favorite, 4 players 25% ect ect. If there are 2 or even 3 people all in your likely up against Kings Queens or AK all of which you are a huge favorite over.

As for risking 10,000 to win 600 i never ever said push all in with the pot being that small thats just silly but of course you raise raise with your aces unless your planning a trap which i dont really think is a good play with aces.

You also mention counting on luck for your first hand negates skill. I think counting on bad luck is a far worse move.

 

[Hagar]

Who said anything about counting on bad luck? (Although I am starting to expect it these days.)

Just gott be aware of the possibilities of getting snapped off, especially if there's multiple people getting involved.

 

[Ender]

PK,

Against 3 other random hands, AA is only going to win about 25%-30% of the time... that's not a favorite to win. It IS a favorite to win vs any other single hand, but that's of no concern to you because you have to overcome all of the other callers. Somewhere around 60% of the time you will lose with AA vs. 3 other callers... that sucks!

Also I think I would take into account the fact that callers will be calling with hands that are most likely NOT random. PK brought up a good point that they might hold AK or something where you are a HUGE favorite, but lets say 3 other callers all hold a pocket pair (88, TT, QQ). That's 6 outs, not counting the smaller outs of someone making a runner straight or flush, that can beat you. Those AA sure have shrunk up a bit now!

However, I think that this post has gone a little off of what Quads originally posted. With AA here you really need to bet big to isolate... most people won't call a raise and a BIG reraise, especially on the first hand. The original raiser raised 5X the BB ($250), so a raise to $1000-$2000 would be enough to see where you stand, who folds, and who (if anyone) decided to go all in. Gotta make that all-in call if 1 player goes all in and either no one else or 1 other player calls. 2 callers, I'd still probably call, putting them on AK or KK and hoping to triple up and ride out the first day easy!!

On one more side note (sorry about the long post), there's also a chance that anyone who would go all-in on the first hand of a HUGE tourney might also have AA himself! Slim chances, I know, but if a logical player is willing to push on the first hand, I really have to put him only on 3 hands (AKs, AA, KK) unless he's aggressive or just plain stupid!! Well, that's that. I think I'll have bigger problems in my tourney career than whether or not to make a decision on having AA on the button on the first hand lol!!

-David "kid"

 

[partykid707]

6 outs with a small staright possibiltity?? thats the same as qq vs ak and last time i checked qq was a favorite if ak isnt suited, and this time im going to quadruple my stack, i'll take that chance anytime of day

 

[Deuces Empty]

I still agree with Hagar and Ender. It's a LOOOOONNNGGG Tourney. If I'm up against 3 other hands, I'm not going to gamble all my chips with less than a 50% chance to win, even if I am the favorite.

 

[Guest]

If anyone of you guys have ever or would ever lay down AA preflop in this position please speak up now... and could you tell me the price of the bridge you are selling???

 

[Hagar]

I definately would. Early in a tournament, with several players (more than 3?) all-in ahead of me, and I have relatively little or nothing in the pot. You're just not that much of a favorite against many players. You may actually lose favorite status at some point. Even half stack bets may be worthy of letting go - you won't know what to be afraid of being up against. KK? AK? 88? JT? Which suit? Which connectors? There are some absolute maniacs out there who would be going in on a bluff and then catch thier crap and bust you. Is it really worth the whole tourney early on? Not to me.

It's hard to imagine that it could actually be that extreme, but there are situations in tournament play when it is correct to get away from the rockets.

 

[Guest]

For me this would be a reraise x3 or x4 of bet and call an all in if necessary.

 

[Hagar]

That's pretty much what I said in my original post on this subject. But, if there were more than 2 or 3 players all-in, I would have to seriously consider laying it down to fight another day. Remember, you're not necessarily up against "reasonable" opponents in this spot.


Maybe I've just experienced too many rediculous beats and lean towards caution, but many tournamen t"experts" talk about staying away from big coin flip situations in tournament play wherever possible. Against more than 3 or 4 opponents, your Aces start nearing coin flip status. I don't know exactly where the line is regarding number of opponents where Aces are a collective dog (guess I should!), but there comes a point where Aces lose thier value.

Just my opinion, based on my studies.

 

[Guest]

Sounds good Hagar and very reasonable but for me with this situation, I would much rather take a shot with those Ace's then pass them up and never catch another hand worth playing and get ate up by the blinds. I'm just being honest with myself and saying that I just couldn't lay them down, not the strongest starting hand in holdem. If it's your time to take the tournament, those Aces will hold I guarantee it.

Now KK or QQ now that is a different story...

 

[Deuces Empty]

Sounds good Hagar and very reasonable but for me with this situation, I would much rather take a shot with those Ace's then pass them up and never catch another hand worth playing and get ate up by the blinds. I'm just being honest with myself and saying that I just couldn't lay them down, not the strongest starting hand in holdem. If it's your time to take the tournament, those Aces will hold I guarantee it.

Now KK or QQ now that is a different story...

You aren't going to get ate up by the blinds at the world series, they're 2 hours each level. I would reraise 3x -4x but facing 2 or more all-ins, I'm folding.

 

[Quads]

So you're saying that if there is an all in (or two) in front of you and the action comes to you i na 3 way pot, and you have aces, you are folding?

You need to pick a new game. (read on)

Would you fold them in a $10 dollar buy in home game?
No? Why? It's the same game, same poker statistics, same math.

Folsing aces preflop is just silly in this situation. Now, there is a time where you might consider it. On the bubble, letting a fer other players beat eachother up to bust out and you have a surplus of chips.