Had a nice call with Quads today about his new safe purchase. They are pretty cool appliances, I like 'em! And it's like a sophisticated tool purchase, a real guy's purchase. We like comparing specs and talking features.
So I thought I'd put out a safe buyers guide of my own sharing what I've learned about them. I also found a decent buyer's guide for safes here . . .
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunsafes.html#bolts
JC's Safe Buying Guide
Bottom line is pay more for thicker steel and more insulation. It's physics. Look at safes about the same dimensions from different makers and look at the weight. If one 23 cubic foot safe weighs 550 lbs and another 23 cubic foot safe weighs 700 lbs, that extra weight is heavier steel and/or more insulation.
If you get an 11 gauge sidewall safe with 2 layers of fireboard from two makers and one brags that they have 16 1.25" bolts and the other only has 14 1" bolts . . . guess what? Not any difference in security. They are not going to fail/not fail because of the bolts.
Go for thicker steel and more insulation (if fire safety is a big deal to you). Only then go for thicker bolts, fancier relockers (you expecting safe crackers at your house? Then you're fucked regardless :lol: ). If I can have 10 gauge sidewalls and 1" bolts, or 11 gauge sidewalls and 1.25" bolts, I'll go with the smaller bolts and thicker steel every time.
Get up to 8 gauge (roughly 3/16") sidewalls, then bigger bolts might be worthwhile. A little fancier anti-drill plating and cam-over operation on the bolt throws might be worthwhile. But the big mistake folks make is looking at all the fancy shit in the door on two similar 11 gauge (some are even 12 gauge!) sidewall safes, and I'll go through the sidewall with a fireman's axe before I'll attack the door. Marketing hype and waste of money. The rule is as you get more/thicker bolts and better locking mechanics, you have to also go with thicker walls or you're wasting your money.
On fire ratings, they are not really comparable. You have to get a printout of the temperature curve used in the test. Some come up to rated temperature much more slowly, some use average temperature . . .you have to see the temperature/time curve to make comparisons. It's easier though. Most safes use 5/8" fireboard (basically sheetrock). Forget the tests, count the layers.
1 layer of fireboard all around is going to be the same level of fire protection in the same steel gauge safe regardless of the testing they do. It's physics. Two layers is better. Three, better still, four is pretty darn fireproof. So learn to compare the physical aspects of your sidewalls and insulation. Once you have two safes that are comparable there, only then can you compare other features. And if you are putting expensive features on an 11 gauge safe, it's just a waste of money.
For example, from the downloadable catalog at the Liberty Safe website, here's how their line specs out. These are all made by Liberty Safes.
Economy:
sidewall = 12 gauge
Fireboard = 1 layer all around
fire rating = 20 minutes at 1,200 degrees
Centurion:
sidewall = 12 gauge
Fireboard = 1 layer sides, 2 layers ceiling
fire rating = 30 minutes at 1,200 degrees
25 cf safe = 490 lbs
Colonial:
sidewall = 12 gauge
Fireboard = 2 layer sides, 3 layers ceiling
fire rating = 45 minutes at 1,200 degrees
23 cf safe = 565 lbs
Note that the above are all 12 gauge walls, the only difference is in fire rating. Don't be willing to spend a lot on fancy locking mechanisms, these are too thin, the extra thick bolts, extra bolts and fancy lockers are wasted. These have 1" bolts, I believe.
Franklin:
sidewall = 11 gauge
Fireboard = 2 layer sides, 3 layers ceiling
fire rating = 60 minutes at 1,200 degrees
25 cf safe = 660 lbs
Note this is the first increase in wall thickness. Also note the insulation is the same but the fire rating is higher. Yes, thicker walls do add to the insulation properties a bit. Now you could look for a few more bolts and features, but compare features only among similar 11 gauge walls when comparing security.
Lincoln:
sidewall = 11 gauge
Fireboard = 3 layer sides, 4 layers ceiling
fire rating = 90 minutes at 1,200 degrees
25 cf safe = 735 lbs
Now you are getting into some real fire protection. My Lincoln is also a 2003 model and mine has 10 gauge walls (they used to get thicker between the Franklin and Lincoln) which makes me happier. Smaller gauge is thicker steel. The Lincoln and Franklin are available with cam-over locks and they both have 1.25" bolts. The Franklin only has bolts on the sides, the Lincoln has them side, top and bottom. The Lincoln introduces ball bearing hardplate as a security feature.
This illustrates my point about keeping security upgrades commensurate with the wall thickness. My older safe has 1" bolts with triple hard plate around the lock but 10 gauge walls. The new Lincoln has 1.25" bolts and ball bearing hardplate but 11 gauge walls. Would I trade my safe for the new one? NO!!! I'll keep my 1" bolts and triple hard plate because I like the thicker walls! Mine weighs 800 lbs, the newer one weighs 735. Same insulation. What does that tell you? I'll take my older model any day.
Presidential:
sidewall = 7 gauge
Fireboard = 4 layer sides, 5 layers ceiling
fire rating = 2.5 hours at 1,200 degrees
25 cf safe = 1,000 lbs
Now that's a safe! It's also expensive. But that's real wall thickness there. It has 1.5" bolts, cam-over gear-driven locking mechanism, ball bearing hardplate. The point of all this is that if you look at Canon or Liberty then compare them to a Fort Knox, you'll find the Fort Knox introduces a lot of fancy anti-burglar stuff that is very expensive lower down their model line. Generally with equal wall thickness you'll find a much fancier door and hardware, but the cost a lot more. And I don't think it's worth it because they introduce too much expensive stuff before the wall thickness warrants it. It's not that it's bad, it's just wasted.
Why do the do it? Look at their brochure. If you were a safe salesman would you rather talk about wall thickness? Short conversation. Or would you rather talk about how many bolts, how thick are they, gear drive mechanisms, corner bolts, fancier hardplate, etcetera. It's easier to upsell that stuff.
Although I like Liberty Safes, I also like other brands. I'm not pushing their stuff, although I think they have the most sensible mix of features all along their product line, in other words they introduce the fancier stuff appropriately as their safes get sturdier.
Now you can intelligently compare safes from different makers. Look to wall thickness first, then to insultion if fire protection is a priority, then to security features. Insulation is always good if you are fire conscious. But only add the expensive security features as the safes get sturdier. Compare weight between safes of similar dimensions.
Happy safe buying!
Link to Liberty catalog: http://www.libertysafe.com/catalog_request.php
So I thought I'd put out a safe buyers guide of my own sharing what I've learned about them. I also found a decent buyer's guide for safes here . . .
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunsafes.html#bolts
JC's Safe Buying Guide
Bottom line is pay more for thicker steel and more insulation. It's physics. Look at safes about the same dimensions from different makers and look at the weight. If one 23 cubic foot safe weighs 550 lbs and another 23 cubic foot safe weighs 700 lbs, that extra weight is heavier steel and/or more insulation.
If you get an 11 gauge sidewall safe with 2 layers of fireboard from two makers and one brags that they have 16 1.25" bolts and the other only has 14 1" bolts . . . guess what? Not any difference in security. They are not going to fail/not fail because of the bolts.
Go for thicker steel and more insulation (if fire safety is a big deal to you). Only then go for thicker bolts, fancier relockers (you expecting safe crackers at your house? Then you're fucked regardless :lol: ). If I can have 10 gauge sidewalls and 1" bolts, or 11 gauge sidewalls and 1.25" bolts, I'll go with the smaller bolts and thicker steel every time.
Get up to 8 gauge (roughly 3/16") sidewalls, then bigger bolts might be worthwhile. A little fancier anti-drill plating and cam-over operation on the bolt throws might be worthwhile. But the big mistake folks make is looking at all the fancy shit in the door on two similar 11 gauge (some are even 12 gauge!) sidewall safes, and I'll go through the sidewall with a fireman's axe before I'll attack the door. Marketing hype and waste of money. The rule is as you get more/thicker bolts and better locking mechanics, you have to also go with thicker walls or you're wasting your money.
On fire ratings, they are not really comparable. You have to get a printout of the temperature curve used in the test. Some come up to rated temperature much more slowly, some use average temperature . . .you have to see the temperature/time curve to make comparisons. It's easier though. Most safes use 5/8" fireboard (basically sheetrock). Forget the tests, count the layers.
1 layer of fireboard all around is going to be the same level of fire protection in the same steel gauge safe regardless of the testing they do. It's physics. Two layers is better. Three, better still, four is pretty darn fireproof. So learn to compare the physical aspects of your sidewalls and insulation. Once you have two safes that are comparable there, only then can you compare other features. And if you are putting expensive features on an 11 gauge safe, it's just a waste of money.
For example, from the downloadable catalog at the Liberty Safe website, here's how their line specs out. These are all made by Liberty Safes.
Economy:
sidewall = 12 gauge
Fireboard = 1 layer all around
fire rating = 20 minutes at 1,200 degrees
Centurion:
sidewall = 12 gauge
Fireboard = 1 layer sides, 2 layers ceiling
fire rating = 30 minutes at 1,200 degrees
25 cf safe = 490 lbs
Colonial:
sidewall = 12 gauge
Fireboard = 2 layer sides, 3 layers ceiling
fire rating = 45 minutes at 1,200 degrees
23 cf safe = 565 lbs
Note that the above are all 12 gauge walls, the only difference is in fire rating. Don't be willing to spend a lot on fancy locking mechanisms, these are too thin, the extra thick bolts, extra bolts and fancy lockers are wasted. These have 1" bolts, I believe.
Franklin:
sidewall = 11 gauge
Fireboard = 2 layer sides, 3 layers ceiling
fire rating = 60 minutes at 1,200 degrees
25 cf safe = 660 lbs
Note this is the first increase in wall thickness. Also note the insulation is the same but the fire rating is higher. Yes, thicker walls do add to the insulation properties a bit. Now you could look for a few more bolts and features, but compare features only among similar 11 gauge walls when comparing security.
Lincoln:
sidewall = 11 gauge
Fireboard = 3 layer sides, 4 layers ceiling
fire rating = 90 minutes at 1,200 degrees
25 cf safe = 735 lbs
Now you are getting into some real fire protection. My Lincoln is also a 2003 model and mine has 10 gauge walls (they used to get thicker between the Franklin and Lincoln) which makes me happier. Smaller gauge is thicker steel. The Lincoln and Franklin are available with cam-over locks and they both have 1.25" bolts. The Franklin only has bolts on the sides, the Lincoln has them side, top and bottom. The Lincoln introduces ball bearing hardplate as a security feature.
This illustrates my point about keeping security upgrades commensurate with the wall thickness. My older safe has 1" bolts with triple hard plate around the lock but 10 gauge walls. The new Lincoln has 1.25" bolts and ball bearing hardplate but 11 gauge walls. Would I trade my safe for the new one? NO!!! I'll keep my 1" bolts and triple hard plate because I like the thicker walls! Mine weighs 800 lbs, the newer one weighs 735. Same insulation. What does that tell you? I'll take my older model any day.
Presidential:
sidewall = 7 gauge
Fireboard = 4 layer sides, 5 layers ceiling
fire rating = 2.5 hours at 1,200 degrees
25 cf safe = 1,000 lbs
Now that's a safe! It's also expensive. But that's real wall thickness there. It has 1.5" bolts, cam-over gear-driven locking mechanism, ball bearing hardplate. The point of all this is that if you look at Canon or Liberty then compare them to a Fort Knox, you'll find the Fort Knox introduces a lot of fancy anti-burglar stuff that is very expensive lower down their model line. Generally with equal wall thickness you'll find a much fancier door and hardware, but the cost a lot more. And I don't think it's worth it because they introduce too much expensive stuff before the wall thickness warrants it. It's not that it's bad, it's just wasted.
Why do the do it? Look at their brochure. If you were a safe salesman would you rather talk about wall thickness? Short conversation. Or would you rather talk about how many bolts, how thick are they, gear drive mechanisms, corner bolts, fancier hardplate, etcetera. It's easier to upsell that stuff.
Although I like Liberty Safes, I also like other brands. I'm not pushing their stuff, although I think they have the most sensible mix of features all along their product line, in other words they introduce the fancier stuff appropriately as their safes get sturdier.
Now you can intelligently compare safes from different makers. Look to wall thickness first, then to insultion if fire protection is a priority, then to security features. Insulation is always good if you are fire conscious. But only add the expensive security features as the safes get sturdier. Compare weight between safes of similar dimensions.
Happy safe buying!
Link to Liberty catalog: http://www.libertysafe.com/catalog_request.php