50 Person BYOC Toruney

[Quads]

Curious to know if we were able to plan ahead to accommodate everyone’s schedule, if there would be interest in a 50 (or more) person tourney. (at least 5 tables)

We would need to find the space (which I have several leads on) to accommodate 5 poker tables and gather enough people to do it.

With 50 ppl, we could put a prize booty of $1,000 for 1st place and pay the entire final table.

Interested?

[Hagar]

Well we haven't been able to pull more than 19 when trying to fill 33 seats. I don't think we're there yet..........

I think once we have to start reserve lists for our tourneys or turning people away we can explore an event that's more dramatic then what we have to date.

Sure hope we get some help planning this one... :(

We have a hard enough time filling 2 tables, and we've only been able to do that once (cash game at Daddy's in Elk Grove). Have we even managed to break 20 people for any of the tourneys at Hagars? :cry:

I like the idea though. Let's set our sights high!!! :!:

[Quads]

I know of ~20 others that with enough notice will hit a tourney type event.

SJ and I were talking about it and figured I'd poll the group to see if there was an interest.

Organizing it wouldn't be hard (I don't think)

Get everyone there. Eviite the event, and take tourney buy in's via paypal through the evite. If you say yes, deposit on your seat (no flakes or no shows) and show up. Each of us who have tables will need to bring them.

Well...If you need me...My availability for this is gonna be limited to not any sooner than November. September is booked for me. I have a "guys only" fishing vacation planned for the first week of October, and I'm cashing in the rest of my October favors to get to Reno.

Catch me either the 2nd or 3rd weekend of November. Sorry. Hope that doesn't make me the party pooper...

:cry:

[Hagar]

If you have ~20 other players, how come we can't fill our 22-33 seat tourneys?

Hey I'm all for it. I'll help deal and drag my table, chips and cards (assuming it's wihtin reasonable distance) and support you 100%.

Getting buy-ins upfront is the best way to do it; if you no-show, you're responsible to fill the seat if you want your money back, otherwise, "Sorry Charlie, thanks for the free money".

i think it would be a hoot!! scheduling would be the hard part. if Quads has some leads on where it could be held that would be great. great idea about the paypal thing also!!

i am with Doc though. November is the soonest i could even think about doing something like that.

[Quads]

Reson being these don't show up at every tourney is they are a few different groups that are not part of our regular BYOC group and now regular / weekly players. So, being that they are all hit or miss players for a regular game, they would be on the list for a large tourney.

[Robert]

I voted yes. It sounds like a lot of fun. :)

[Ender]

I agree that this would be a really cool event. We could even get people that don't regularly come to get in on the action. Paying upfront via Paypal is almost a necessity, though, since there is too much of a risk of the whole thing falling apart if even 5-10 people don't show up. Having a paid seat would make people show or lose out. Then we could get some killer action going after the tourney if there's time. Let's see what November is looking like, since people seem to be busy till then, and after that comes the holiday season. See ya' all this weekend.

-David
:D

[solring]

If a large tourney is held, there are at least 4, and as many as 10, other people that I know that would be interested.

I might have a spot that it could be hosted, too.

[SushiRoll]

Sounds like it would be alot of fun if you can pull it off. I also have some friends if given advance notice would play in the tourney. Keep us posted.
Thanks!!!

[Quads]

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that holds us back from plaanning it and signing people up for it would be the space and the chips.

Filling the tables (which we have) with people doesn't seem to be a problem. We would need about 2K in chips with the correct color scheme.

reds (5)
green (25)
black (100)
white (500)
other color, yellow or purple (1000)

[BigKahuna]

Sounds like we need some type of community center room or clubhouse or something like that....unless someone has a phat 4,000 SF pad that they want to open up which is highly unlikely. I have chips as well but unless we are going to combine disimilar chips, we will have to wait until someone goes on a shopping spree or we all chip in a bit to get official BYOC chips.

I am down with the tourney so let me know if there is anything I can do to help organize it.

[Quads]

We have got to be very, very careful with a public space, such as a community center or clubhouse in regards to crossing the line of "legal home gaming / gambling" and the other side of law, as to what is no longer a "legal home game".

We can discuss further verbally. I've done an extensive amount of research on it and have had several conversations with people on it.

More and more people are getting busted for an 'organized' event, and the last thing I want is that to happen to us.

There are a couple of threads on it in Scott's forum.
http://www.scottkeen.com/forum/viewtopi ... light=raid (http://www.scottkeen.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=268&highlight=raid)

[BigKahuna]

Wow, iread all those posts and its amazing the amount of research and talk going on about all this. I thought the article you have posted in one of the other areas of the site about California law pretty much covers our group but you never know.

I will keep it on the down low and maybe it is best we just stick with what we got and if we want to do a big tourney then just try to do a 3 table at max and up the buy-in for that night to $50 - $75 which would achieve the same effect of a 50 person tourney somewhat in terms of booty.

[Quads]

We are completely legal as far as any of our games, but when we go rent a space or room, then it's no longer considered a "residence", where poker in a private residence is 100% legal, however there are, like any law, loopholes.

[Hagar]

As far as chips, between us we should have plenty. I have 2000 chips myself. Doc has 1000, Dodger has 1000, Quads has 1000?

They don't all have to be the same kind - red is red, green is green...

As far as using a "public" facility (one that we rent or a community rec-center, etc), I would think it would be fine, so long as nobody profits by puttingthe game on. If we need to collect a share of the rent from each player on top of the entry fee, it's not profit - it's costs.

I'm pretty sure I can squeeze 3 tables in my garage. If it really came down to it, I could make room in the house for 2 more tables, but we'd need to either pick a weekend that my wife will be out of town (which is rare) or fund a little weekend get away for her (which I'm sure she would love!). I'd really rather avoid that, but if we really had the interest, it might could work out.

[Quads]

I think with yous, my, docs and dodgers, we are fine on chips.

Reegarding the rental fee for a public facility, we'll get (or could get) busted for that. There is a loophole around it. The law very specifically says "private residence" and is very specific to that. Anything outside of a private residence crosses the line.

[csalv95655]

Yes I would definetely be interested!!!!

[jkramer5]

I'd love to take part, paying in advance thru paypal, in person or whatever would be no problem for me either, in fact that's how I run my 8 player game.

Altho if it's november My wife and I are going to mexico on a cruise over Thanksgiving Nov21-27

Quads,

Haw many tables to start? How long would it take to bleed down to two tables?

[Quads]

50 person table would be 10 to a table, so 5 tables. I imagine we'd get down to the final by about the 4th hour.

Most of that will be highly dependant on how the blinds would be structured.

The tourney at the derby runs about 3+ hours. I ahve some software I can punch the numbers into and it will tell me exactly with breaks and blinds.

not sure how feasable this is.....but nce the garage is done i will have room for two table....maybe three....and a pretty big backyard.....we start early enough we could be down to one or two tables in the garage by dark-thirty. if the weather permits it might work.

Believe it or not, Daddy was not tokin' on a dubie prior to that post.

I was over there after work having a few brewskis (big surprise...if you're ever looking for me after work you know where to find me... :) ) and we scoped it out.

We could do it at his place. He actually has a pretty huge garage where we could fit 3 tables, and a covered patio in the backyard where 2 more could go.

i talked to Mame last night (just to make sure) and she was completely good with the idea!! i sent off for a quote on porta-pottys today....with 50 people there will have to be some sort of outside potty station. not sure i am crazy about 50 people tramping through the house....ya know? i am thinking we could add a couple of bucks to the buy-in to offset the cost.

[Quads]

By law, we couldn't do that. (add a couple of bucks to pay for a honey bucket in the back yard)

We could hold a raffel, and the winner of the raffel could be a hell of a guy and donate it back to the hosue though.

The last thing we want to do is get 50 people with cash in one spot and have the cops come poking around looking for a reason to confiscate the chips, tables and cash.

I like that you are willing to host a 50 person event, but I'd want there to be ZERO red flags.

http://www.homepoker.com

We know that Section 19801(j) of Chapter 5 says that:

"(j) In order to effectuate state policy as declared herein, it is necessary that gambling establishments, activities, and equipment be licensed, that persons participating in those activities be licensed or registered, that certain transactions, events, and processes involving gambling establishments and owners of gambling establishments be subject to prior approval or permission, that unsuitable persons not be permitted to associate with gambling activities or gambling establishments, and that gambling activities take place only in suitable locations. Any license or permit issued, or other approval granted pursuant to this chapter, is declared to be a revocable privilege, and no holder acquires any vested right therein or thereunder."

So a casual read seems to imply that all gambling, including home poker games, has to be licensed. But wait - let's examine further what "gambling" means.

Section 19805(j) of Chapter 5 gives the definition of "gambling":

"(j) "Gambling" means to deal, operate, carry on, conduct, maintain, or expose for play any controlled game."

OK, that's all fine and dandy - but what is a "controlled game"?

Section 19805(e) defines a "controlled game":

"(e) "Controlled game" means any controlled game, as defined by subdivision (e) of Section 337j of the Penal Code."

OK, then what is a "controlled game, as defined by subdivision (e) of Section 337j of the Penal Code"?

Subdivision (e) of Section 337j of the Penal Code says:

"(1) As used in this section, "controlled game" means any game of chance, including any gambling device, played for currency, check, credit, or any other thing of value that is not prohibited and made unlawful by statute or local ordinance. (2) As used in this section, "controlled game" does not include any of the following:
(A) The game of bingo conducted pursuant to Section 326.5.
(B) Parimutuel racing on horse races regulated by the California Horse Racing Board.
(C) Any lottery game conducted by the California State Lottery.
(D) Games played with cards in private homes or residences, in which no person makes money for operating the game, except as a player."

Voila! 337j(2)(D) says that home games without a profit motive for the operator are not "controlled games"! Therefore, they are not a "gambling" activity under Chapter 5; therefore they are not subject to Chapter 5's licensing and other requirements.

http://www.homepokergames.com/homepokerlaw.php
CALIFORNIA

Chapter 5 is the Gambling Control Act. Section 19801 (a) states: "Gambling can become addictive and is not an activity to be promoted or legitimized as entertainment for children and families." The Act says that permissible gambling is that gambling deemed by the state to not be endangering of public health, safety, or welfare. All gambling must be pre-approved by the state through government licensing. This includes home poker games. One reason I think California may be so strict on home gambling is that because they have an abundance of legal gambling facilities (tons of poker rooms) so the strict laws on illegal gambling are based on the assumption that there won't be much "underground demand" for gambling since the state of California supplies a healthy dose of legal facilities to gamble in. This is just my opinion.

i think Quads is right to be so cautious. if it were 10/20/people it might not be as obvious as 50 people filing into a house all at once!! it's a one in a million sho that anyone would call the cops or one would actually drive by and stop....but we would be better off not taking the chance until we knew for sure.

For what it's worth...

Ali's step-mom (BTW...Ali is my step-daughter) just retired from a state job as Assistant to the Executive Director of the California Gambling Control Commission.

I've had this discussion with her before. Specifically, it was when Dennis was considering raking the PP games before the group broke up.

The word I got from her is that to the best of her knowledge, no prosecution has ever happened as the result of a home poker game in California. To quote her, "We are so busy with the regular casinos that looking at home poker games isn't even on our radar."

And from my own personal experience, I can tell you it's pretty unlikely that any cop on the street is gonna bust up a home poker game. They don't know enough to do so. Those of us here know more about gambling statutes than your average deputy on the street. They might look cross-eyed at you, but the worst that's gonna happen is they might tell you to break up the party if it's too rowdy. (Hell...Most of them would probably ask for an invitation to come back when the shift ends.)

By no means am I implying that we should throw caution to the wind. I just don't think it's worth worrying about "a lot." How often do you hear about "bunco parties" with a bunch of people where they're playing for money. It's the same thing in the eyes of the law.

Like I said...Take it with a grain of salt...

Here's my real concern...

It's not the law...It's security...

There will be some number of unknown people at this tourney. That's almost unavoidable. Even if we limit attendance to established BYOC'ers only inviting people that we are most comfortable with, I would not want to be responsible for several thousand dollars under those circumstances.

Even if the night goes off without a hitch, our games have been "exposed" to a bunch of strangers and there's always the possibility that something could happen in the future. After all, we're advertising the whens and wheres of all our events right here on the internet and on any given game night there's a few grand on hand.

All of that is not to mention the fact that I would never want that many people in or around my home. Daddy has the room to host the game, but the more I think about it the crazier an idea I think it is. Wherever we have it there will be gambling, drinking, and a bunch of people. Somebody's place is bound to get trashed...

[Quads]

I assure you if we are running an illegal game they will find us. Regardless of what is on the CGC's 'radar'.

Security is a valid concern as well, so there needs to be some consideration for that aspect.

As far as the "no prosecution" item, I find that hard to believe, and a quick search should provide results. With Ca being card room and casino rich, I would suspect that they have an eye on what's going on in homes and clubs.

None the less, all that aside, if we run a legal game, aka, we don't rake pots, change and admission fee, whatever, we have nothing to worry about.

Wherever we have it there will be gambling, drinking, and a bunch of people. Somebody's place is bound to get trashed...

I have to ask why you think this? Why would this be any different than any other game? We pride ourselves on BYOC Poker being a clean, smart, group of people where our objective is not to get hammered at the poker table, but to play some serious poker with good friends, oh.. and have a good time.

[/quote]

I'm not claiming to be able to assure anybody about anything that has to do with the CGCC. I'm just telling you what I've heard from somebody who does know more than any of us about what gets their attention these days.

And as for somebody's place getting trashed...

Our small groups of 10-20 people are pretty respectful, but things have happened...my carpet has been spilled on, Mark's garage floor has been left as an appetizer plate, Cindy had a track light broken, etc. etc. etc...

Those were all accidents. Now put 50 people into the same environment and you are obviously 5 times more likely to have the same kinds of accidents. Add alcohol and some group dynamics to the mix, and I think that in a gambling atmosphere it would be nearly impossible to try and ensure that there weren't those kinds of accidents. It's just the law of averages I'm talking about. I'm not implying that anybody is going to be intentionally careless. Something is just bound to happen, especially when the hosts themselves are preoccupied by the action.

I just simply wouldn't expose my home to that.

my thoughts tend to run to the worst possible thing that could happen. it's one of the things that endears heather to me...hehehe......yeah right.

if serious attention were given to the guest list there would be less chance something bad would happen. per say, if Hagar were to say "Hey, I hav this guy that would like to play and I feel he would fit in well" then there would be an acceptable reference. but if Hagars friend were to say the same thing then we might be better off saying "thanks but no thanks" once it gets to that point then you lose control. once you lose immediate accountablilty things go to shit (i can't wait to see that bleeped) LOL!!

everyone in the group seems to be pretty kewl. but everyone has a friend (myself included) that just doesn't know how to act in public. that's the thing you have to worry about. is someone acting so out of control that even the friend that brought them is surprised.

i am not too worried about my house getting trashed.......everyone will be outside and not allowed in the house. any food will be prepared by mama or myself or brought already prepared and i have a fridge in the garage to store stuff.

it's up to everyone else.....but Mama and I don't have a problem with attempting to host.....besdies that.........i rent!!

[Hagar]

Doc has some valid issues.

With 20 people, most of us know (at least a litttle bit) most everybody and there may be a 1 or 2 newbies. That's a little easier to manage and predict than 20 or 30 unknowns thrown on top of that.

We gonna hire security?

And it wouldn't take but 1 or 2 guys with the wrong intentions to really make for an ugly situation.

And yes, this could be a problem even in our 1 or 2 table games - any newbie could cause a problem, which is why I'm much more comfortable with "member" invitees as new guests. But as Doc said, the odds are less that there will be a problem with fewer people.

Why don't we wait until we have a big enough pool from "known" players before we attempt something like this?

I'd have no problem if you or any of the regulars wanted to invite a handful of friends on top of the regulars that they'd "vouche" for.

The more I think about it the less interested I'd be in being involved in an "open invite" tourney, in a private residence, with the possibility of there being 20+ people that we don't know.

PLUS!!!!! if we make everyone dress in a pick g-string and matching tube top then there won't be much trouble.....no one would be able to move fast enough without "something" falling out.....there ya go!!

[Quads]

it was never supposed to be an "open invite" tourney. it wasn't going to be advertised in any maner other than word of mouth to those who know us. it was a byoc tourney with 50 people. i'm sure our core group of 20 people could hustle up a friend or two.

but the more i read ablout this issue, that issue, i am now saying, fuck it. we won't do it. or better yet, if it does happen, it doesn't sound like it will though this forum. 13 people showed an interest in it through the poll, that's a far stretch from 50.

seems like anyting more than 15 or so people then becomes too much of a pain in the ass for anyone to consider. daddy was hip the idea, i have two people i work with that are hip to hosting it as well, and one other guy i know up in edh that has about 6000 square feet (yes six thousand square feet) of basement that will host one fuck of a poker party.

but if nobody has the motivation or if nobody dreams and ponders cool shit to do, (like how to expand and build our group, different tourneys, games ,formats, new people, new ideas, etc) and create solutions for the issues that come up or obsticals, solutions and ideas which continue to promote its very existance.... then i guess we'll just keep on keepin' on with the same ol same ol.... shit...

[BigKahuna]

I am all for the idea of a BYOC member only guest list! I want the winner of this thing to be someone who has actually invested some time in our group and someone that we can genuinely root for on our behalf. I don;t like the idea of some new guy just coming in for this opportunity from his normal card house or internet play without showing any genuine interest in our group prior to that.

I have no problem with maybe inviting one close friend each who would definitely fit into the dynamic of the group and who was planning to join our group anyways.

If it can't be me winning the whole thing, then I want it to be at least a regular whose ugly mug I see on the boob tube.

what's the guys deal with the 6000 sq. ft. basement? if he's up for it and it's inside....then let's have it there? find out what his deal is as far as his feelings on security, bathrooms...etc. and let's go from there!! it's not something that i soing to happen this weekend. and the bathroom issue WILL be an issue with 50 people...ya get one guy that "bulked up" before the game and you end up with a clogged toilet and 49 other people doing the "pee pee" dance. not a pretty sight. i honestly think that everyone would be up for it but it's new and it's going to take some discussion before it come to fruition.

[Rob]

I've been watching this thread with some interest.

What would it take to throw a one time, or 4 times a year commercial event?

There are lots of empty office space in Roseville, loomis, rocklin, etc. Some of these owners may be willing to entertain a proposal to take some of the monthly mortage burden off them.

I'm not thinking of a 'lets make some money' venture, more of a 'lets cover the expense' type of thing. We can be less interested in who attends, and open the event to non-byoc people.

Are there such things as temporary gambling permits?

Rob

[Quads]

If you ahve been watching this thread, then I'm sure you didn't miss the

(D) Games played with cards in private homes or residences, in which no person makes money for operating the game, except as a player."

If we do pull a game off that is hosted in such location, it won't be discussed here.

Hey Guys...I'm not trying to piss in anybody's Wheaties...It seemed to me though like somebody needed to stand up and be the pragmatist on the subject. A lot of effort was going into talking about the logistics of this thing, and nobody had given much thought yet to the practical side of "What is my house gonna look like after 50 people spend an evening there drinking and playing cards?"

I'll agree that security is an issue that can be minimized with careful planning and a careful invite list. No argument from me there.

I think it's realistic for us to do it, but this is a big undertaking. Not only is it a lot of work, but there's a lot of accountability to be had for an event where somebody is responsible for a few thousand dollars of people's money. I'm not a big fan of forcing it to happen just because we've gotten bored of "the same ole stuff." I, for one, am completely entertained and not at all disenchanted by what has come to be "the usual" around here.

[BigKahuna]

As my existence on this forum is now for the sole purpose of busting Quads balls among other things, I say let's relax for a sec and calm the fuck down before we just throw the idea away.

I definitely up for helping make this group unbelievably sweet! It will take some time especially if someone is going to be generous enough to open their house up to 50 people (Daddy). Human nature is to play devil's advocate and that is what alot of this thread is about right now but this idea is definitely doable and I think the low poll response is indicative of every other poll that has been taken on this board. If you poll a large group at one of the next games I think you will get a more accurate reflection of the interest.

Let's fuckin do this Quads! With Daddy or the 6,000 dude leading the charge, we can make this thing happen and address all the concerns to make everyone happy. I was a professional event planner for 6 years catering to thousands of people in one event......this event is definitely doable and I do believe there is enouigh interest especially since you have alot of the core group speaking up.

Let's talk about it at length when we build my table ya punkass bitch!

[Hagar]

Jeez Quads - chill!

It's not that we are against your idea. We actually like it.

Don't forget that this forum is open to the public and people from outside our "list" will find a way in.

There's lot's of things to consider, and we're just bringing them to the forefront.

If we can get 1) a place to do it and 2) 50 (or so) players consisting of BYOC regulars and their friends, then I think we can get serious about planning it. Like I said earlier, this type of event may need to wait until our reliable invite list grows a bit.

Let's pull off a 3 table event first and then go from there. We've yet to fill 2 tables completley. I say when we have regular problems seating everyone interested in a 3 table event, then we cam move on the big one.

[Rob]

(D) Games played with cards in private homes or residences, in which no person makes money for operating the game, except as a player."


Mmmm.

No, I did understand that. I think this is a great idea, and know that we all have natural concerns about bringing a crowd of people to our houses for an event like this.

Are you saying that we cant discus an event that is outside of the home game format? - sort of jepordizing our amateur status?

Rob

[BigKahuna]

No, what he is saying is that the law clearly states that the game is legal as long as it is in a private residence/home without any profit being made by the host. It would not be legal to move the event to a business/commercial environment and make it a commercial venture.

It is all about making this thing happen while following the law of the land.

[BigKahuna]

Oops, your new bleepy feature did not catch my loving nickname for you Quads.....just ignore that.

[Quads]

(ROB:) No, I'm saying that if we lean on the law with hosting the event in a public place, which could be viewed as illegal, (and technically is) it won't be posted here with directions, location, etc.

(ALL:)
I'm all for the event. I got some killer software for running larger (and smaller) events, so it's simply a matter of getting the people to show up, but I'll be honest with you, when we discuss something like this, and all that responses that come back are this problem, that problem, this will go wrong, that could go wrong, I ask myself.. why am I trying to put effort into this when all these people see are problems?

I'm a dreamer, I see opportunities and I chase them for their potential. I see the sunlight through the clouds that will shine on my freshly planted crop, I don’t see clouds, and if I do, I’ll move them. Say what you want, but that's how and why I am where I am in my career, my life, etc. It’s just the kind of person that I am. I never stop pushing to make it happen. And I’ll always try and figure out a way to build a better mouse trap than the guy sitting next to me.

So when the thread gets 50 deep with everyone tearing apart some minor logistics issue, I figure, hell with 'em. I'll keep pushing, make it happen, without them and tell them all about it later. All they see are the problems with it while all I see is the potential in it.

We are a group of guys and gals that all have one thing in common, we like to play poker. We are all capable, talented and skilled in what we do. Collectively, we are that much more powerful.

I'd be happy to see all the BYOC'ers show up, I'd also be happy to see new people come to the event. They come once, they think, hey, this is alright.. these guys got their sh___ together. I'm hanging out and playing poker with them. Turns out to be a cool kat, he introduces us to a buddy of his who plays sharp cards, we welcome him at a table. Get to know him and just think, he loves to host poker, his brother owns a house boat, his cousin owns a taquito factory, and best of all... his wife loves to bake bunt cakes and tend bar.

So, if you’re on board, cool.
BIG Kahuna and I will send the invite.

You bring a tear to my eye, my darling Jdog, and so I'd go to the ends of the world with you...

(Even if you are becoming a forum nazi... :P )

[Quads]

whatever

i'm just tired of everybody whinning like little bitches while the others are trying to step up and make things happen.

i'll shut up about it.

[Hagar]

Quads, Quads, Quads.

We weren't whining. Really we weren't.

Some of us DO see the clouds and just want to make sure their accounted for. We just want to make sure we all umbrellas with us, even if we don't expect to use them.

It's all fine and dandy to have a "nothing can stop me" attitude, but for something as grand as this, we need to have a plan in place and consider ALL of the possible ramifications of what COULD happen.

Those of us who sounded like we were whining, were just throwing some stuff on the table to consider while planning was still in the early stages. It's much harder to deal with tough issues once the plan is "done".