Home Safe Subforum: The Definitive Home / Gun Safe Buyer's Guide

[JCinPA]

Had a nice call with Quads today about his new safe purchase. They are pretty cool appliances, I like 'em! And it's like a sophisticated tool purchase, a real guy's purchase. We like comparing specs and talking features.

So I thought I'd put out a safe buyers guide of my own sharing what I've learned about them. I also found a decent buyer's guide for safes here . . .

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunsafes.html#bolts


JC's Safe Buying Guide

Bottom line is pay more for thicker steel and more insulation. It's physics. Look at safes about the same dimensions from different makers and look at the weight. If one 23 cubic foot safe weighs 550 lbs and another 23 cubic foot safe weighs 700 lbs, that extra weight is heavier steel and/or more insulation.

If you get an 11 gauge sidewall safe with 2 layers of fireboard from two makers and one brags that they have 16 1.25" bolts and the other only has 14 1" bolts . . . guess what? Not any difference in security. They are not going to fail/not fail because of the bolts.

Go for thicker steel and more insulation (if fire safety is a big deal to you). Only then go for thicker bolts, fancier relockers (you expecting safe crackers at your house? Then you're fucked regardless :lol: ). If I can have 10 gauge sidewalls and 1" bolts, or 11 gauge sidewalls and 1.25" bolts, I'll go with the smaller bolts and thicker steel every time.

Get up to 8 gauge (roughly 3/16") sidewalls, then bigger bolts might be worthwhile. A little fancier anti-drill plating and cam-over operation on the bolt throws might be worthwhile. But the big mistake folks make is looking at all the fancy shit in the door on two similar 11 gauge (some are even 12 gauge!) sidewall safes, and I'll go through the sidewall with a fireman's axe before I'll attack the door. Marketing hype and waste of money. The rule is as you get more/thicker bolts and better locking mechanics, you have to also go with thicker walls or you're wasting your money.

On fire ratings, they are not really comparable. You have to get a printout of the temperature curve used in the test. Some come up to rated temperature much more slowly, some use average temperature . . .you have to see the temperature/time curve to make comparisons. It's easier though. Most safes use 5/8" fireboard (basically sheetrock). Forget the tests, count the layers.

1 layer of fireboard all around is going to be the same level of fire protection in the same steel gauge safe regardless of the testing they do. It's physics. Two layers is better. Three, better still, four is pretty darn fireproof. So learn to compare the physical aspects of your sidewalls and insulation. Once you have two safes that are comparable there, only then can you compare other features. And if you are putting expensive features on an 11 gauge safe, it's just a waste of money.

For example, from the downloadable catalog at the Liberty Safe website, here's how their line specs out. These are all made by Liberty Safes.

Economy:
sidewall = 12 gauge
Fireboard = 1 layer all around
fire rating = 20 minutes at 1,200 degrees

Centurion:
sidewall = 12 gauge
Fireboard = 1 layer sides, 2 layers ceiling
fire rating = 30 minutes at 1,200 degrees
25 cf safe = 490 lbs

Colonial:
sidewall = 12 gauge
Fireboard = 2 layer sides, 3 layers ceiling
fire rating = 45 minutes at 1,200 degrees
23 cf safe = 565 lbs

Note that the above are all 12 gauge walls, the only difference is in fire rating. Don't be willing to spend a lot on fancy locking mechanisms, these are too thin, the extra thick bolts, extra bolts and fancy lockers are wasted. These have 1" bolts, I believe.

Franklin:
sidewall = 11 gauge
Fireboard = 2 layer sides, 3 layers ceiling
fire rating = 60 minutes at 1,200 degrees
25 cf safe = 660 lbs

Note this is the first increase in wall thickness. Also note the insulation is the same but the fire rating is higher. Yes, thicker walls do add to the insulation properties a bit. Now you could look for a few more bolts and features, but compare features only among similar 11 gauge walls when comparing security.

Lincoln:
sidewall = 11 gauge
Fireboard = 3 layer sides, 4 layers ceiling
fire rating = 90 minutes at 1,200 degrees
25 cf safe = 735 lbs

Now you are getting into some real fire protection. My Lincoln is also a 2003 model and mine has 10 gauge walls (they used to get thicker between the Franklin and Lincoln) which makes me happier. Smaller gauge is thicker steel. The Lincoln and Franklin are available with cam-over locks and they both have 1.25" bolts. The Franklin only has bolts on the sides, the Lincoln has them side, top and bottom. The Lincoln introduces ball bearing hardplate as a security feature.

This illustrates my point about keeping security upgrades commensurate with the wall thickness. My older safe has 1" bolts with triple hard plate around the lock but 10 gauge walls. The new Lincoln has 1.25" bolts and ball bearing hardplate but 11 gauge walls. Would I trade my safe for the new one? NO!!! I'll keep my 1" bolts and triple hard plate because I like the thicker walls! Mine weighs 800 lbs, the newer one weighs 735. Same insulation. What does that tell you? I'll take my older model any day.

Presidential:
sidewall = 7 gauge
Fireboard = 4 layer sides, 5 layers ceiling
fire rating = 2.5 hours at 1,200 degrees
25 cf safe = 1,000 lbs

Now that's a safe! It's also expensive. But that's real wall thickness there. It has 1.5" bolts, cam-over gear-driven locking mechanism, ball bearing hardplate. The point of all this is that if you look at Canon or Liberty then compare them to a Fort Knox, you'll find the Fort Knox introduces a lot of fancy anti-burglar stuff that is very expensive lower down their model line. Generally with equal wall thickness you'll find a much fancier door and hardware, but the cost a lot more. And I don't think it's worth it because they introduce too much expensive stuff before the wall thickness warrants it. It's not that it's bad, it's just wasted.

Why do the do it? Look at their brochure. If you were a safe salesman would you rather talk about wall thickness? Short conversation. Or would you rather talk about how many bolts, how thick are they, gear drive mechanisms, corner bolts, fancier hardplate, etcetera. It's easier to upsell that stuff.

Although I like Liberty Safes, I also like other brands. I'm not pushing their stuff, although I think they have the most sensible mix of features all along their product line, in other words they introduce the fancier stuff appropriately as their safes get sturdier.

Now you can intelligently compare safes from different makers. Look to wall thickness first, then to insultion if fire protection is a priority, then to security features. Insulation is always good if you are fire conscious. But only add the expensive security features as the safes get sturdier. Compare weight between safes of similar dimensions.

Happy safe buying!

Link to Liberty catalog: http://www.libertysafe.com/catalog_request.php

[JCinPA]

I just went to the Fort Knox website and I don't want to knock their models, they make good safes. But here's the deal . . . Their Defender, Protector and Guardian models are all 10 gauge sidewall safes. They all weigh 870 lbs (25 cf size) so they are using substantial insulation.

The Defender is a crinkle coat safe for economy (finish is expensive). The Protector is their high gloss paint if you want it exposed in a living area. Both these are great safes with reasonable security features.

But the Guardian? Keerist, they put their very complicated corner bolt system in this and their geared locking mechanism. The regular bolt system and clutch drive on the Defender and Protector are fine for a 10 gauge sidewall safe.

The next step up is the Titan and Legend with 3/16th sidewalls. Now these deserve the geared locking mechanism and the corner bolts! They have an additional 10 gauge steel liner inside the insulation. That's like having my safe inside their safe with the insulation in between!

What does this tell you? Buy the Titan, but skip the Legend. The Titan has all the security of the Legend, but will cost a little less. The Legend, near as I can tell, just has more bolts. You look at the photos and the Titan has plenty of bolts.

Buy the Defender or Protector, but avoid the Guardian! The Guardian will cost more, but won't really be more secure. The sales guy will convince you the Guardian and Titan are the way to go. He'll make a lot more, too!

The Defender, Protector are good safes, the Guardian puts more in their pocket but you are not getting upgrades reasonable for that series.

The Titan is a great safe, stick with it and avoid the Legend, same thing. So I'm not against Fort Knox, they are great safes. But look at the sidewall thickness and weight before you pay up for lots of fancy door hardware.

[yat]

very nice post, I lurned something today

[JCinPA]

very nice post, I lurned something today

The Balvenie helps. Makes you smarter. ;)

[Quads]

Such a great topic, and JC, you have truly been an educational sounding board for me in my purchase. I've moved the thread (copied actually) from OT to the "Everything Else / Man Cave" forum to be accessible to general public viewing as it it really a great topic, and that of which you are quite knowledgeable on.

I'm also reserving my space for my comments and <cut> & </paste> of my purchasing adventure.

[Quads]

Spawning from this thread: http://perfectmancave.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19051

I got the resident expert to chime in and really got an education on home gun safes, fire protection, weight, etc.

Copied here is my summary and what I ended up with:

OK, it's in the garage, has a few things in it and I'm already planning my next safe purchase. Not a bad thing, I just love having a nice safe, now I want nicer and slightly larger. However that moves me into the $2500 to $3500 dollar range, which is a different topic, location, and so on.

After much discussion, research, reading, hunting around, etc. etc. I decided on the Cannon Patriot P22 (http://www.cannonsafe.com/patriot-series-safes/patriot-series-p22-configurable.html) (22 cubic feet)

As for the Cannon, is there a better safe out there? Of course. Will this do what I want it to do for basic block / slow down home protection? Yes. Store a ton of stuff? Yes. Provide a decent level of residential security and fire protection? Yes. In the budget I was trying to stay within, I came across the Cannon, new in the box, lifetime warranty, with all of the basic features I want. I'm stating this as well without opening the wide debate on true security of items, (Vault Grade) and basic protection (Residential Storage) against home burglary and fire.

They retail online anywhere from $850 to $1300 + delivery which can run anywhere from 150 to 300. I found mine locally on sale for $700 OTD.

Much thanks to Moddy for giving me a hand moving this thing. When they say 525lbs, they really mean, 5 hundred and twenty five friggin pounds. Once bolted down, this somebitch ain't going anywhere. Group 1 digital lock, 1" active bolts, adjustable shelves, UL rated, and ETL rated fire testing, etc.

One other point that drew me to buying a new safe, rather than something off craigsfist was the warranty. With Cannon (and many others, but not all, so check this out before you buy) if *anything* goes wrong with the safe, they fix it. It it's broken into, attempted, etc. They fix it. If it goes through a fire, they replace it. And, they pay the freight to and from. No questions asked.

The only mods I'll do to it is adding some interior lighting, and a dehumid/heat stick.

If you're looking for a safe, consider Cannon. They seem to be a good buy for the money. They are made in the USA. Quality, fit, finish, etc. is very nice and a good bang for the buck.

Picks: (sorry, dark garage with a point and shoot camera)
http://www.pcpotato.com/uploader/files/1/Cannon%20Safe%20P22_01.jpg

http://www.pcpotato.com/uploader/files/1/Cannon%20Safe%20P22__02.jpg

http://www.pcpotato.com/uploader/files/1/Cannon%20Safe%20P22__03.jpg

http://www.pcpotato.com/uploader/files/1/Cannon%20Safe%20P22__04.jpg

http://www.pcpotato.com/uploader/files/1/Cannon%20Safe%20P22__05.jpg

http://www.pcpotato.com/uploader/files/1/Cannon%20Safe%20P22__06.jpg[/QUOTE]

[Quads]

Here is a "safe" I wouldn't recommend purchasing, unless you just want to store you smokes and whiskey in it. (for basic fire protection, great. Otherwise, don't put anything valuable in it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRTnJVwYkJs

[Quads]

Finally, in my research, I did come across some other goodies compliments of youtubes, which I'll post here for your viewing entertainment:

We've seen it in the movies, now see it in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxgPX5-cmvc

I found this of particular interest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPcmZ7zIqfo

one more on Hotel "Safes"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTt8wPDVTng

And one for fun. If you can guess the combination this one, you get half of what's inside.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEgu05T4x04

Enjoy Peeps!
And remember: Lock yo shit up! It's a mad mad world out there!

[Quads]

Two last vids that I found of interest when I was researching, and reading in my education of safes:

More on the points of what JC talks about in his post, as well a remind, make absolutely sure you secure your safe to the floor. This is very hard to do without it laying on its back. Another option is to secure it in a location where you simple can't get a great amount of leverage with a prybar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBhOjWHbD6M

And one other video that I came across (they have several) which I also found quite informative if you watch the others or visit their site:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8WRDY0dOkE

[Quads]

And I know JC is a big fan of Liberty safes, and specifically their fire protection, so I'll post this side by side test that I came across a few days ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTGbRGhxAj4

[JCinPA]

Excellent vids, Quads! I was looking for that fire one last night but you beat me to it!

Couple things I've posted are borne out in these.

1. Thicker bolts and door are not going to make a big difference on a 12 gauge sidewall safe. Also, as safes get heavier and more expensive, they get harder to pry and then the thicker bolts and better doors pay off. My safe is still pryable which is why I bolted it into the corner of a room. Hinged on the right, opens from the left and against a left-side wall. With a 10 gauge (pretty stiff) body it won't be pried open there. However, my bolts are welded onto a length of angle iron together. They are not 'through bolts' and if my safe were on it's back, they might fail.

Move to a thicker wall (8 gauge or 7 gauge) and manufacturers tend to run long, individual bolts though a steel U-channel. Those safes are NOT going to be pried open. So pay for quality security door components only as your box gets thicker and stronger. Those Graffunder safes in the first video? They pretty much start at $5,000 and go up fast. But they have 1/4" steel plate sidewalls, 1/2" steel plate in the door, and an inner safe of 10 gauge steel inside the insulation. Those bad boys are SECURE. And worth every penny if you value the security. Not worth it for non-collectible guns and a little camera gear and jewelry. But if you have true collectibles and high-value items, 5 large might seem like reasonable insurance. It's a lifetime purchase, although I wouldn't want to have to move a Graffunder. :eek:

Here is a diagram of differences in bolt mechanics between a medium to lower end safe and a high-end safe.

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/2720/safebolts.jpg

Spend your money wisely and don't get a too-expensive door on a thinner safe body. Marketers don't find thick walls sexy to talk about, but they matter.

2. Love the fire demo. Evidently, that was a Liberty Franklin model they were testing, 2 layers of fireboard versus one. Makes a Big difference! Mine is 3 layers side, 4 ceiliing, but fire safety was as much or more of a concern than security for me. The test protocols all vary, so the Omega Point labs test is NOT comparable to a UL fire rating because the temperature curves are different. UL tests are comparable to other UL tests and Omega Point labs tests are comparable to other Omega Point Labs tests . . . but regardless, the physics works. With same thickness sidewalls, two layers of fireboard is going to be better than one guaranteed, you can ignore the ratings. Conversely, if one safe has a UL test and another has an Omega point labs test with different numbers, you can ignore them. If both safes have, say, 11 gauge walls and two layers of fireboard and Palusol seals in the door frame . . . they are going to be roughly equal in fire protection regardless of what the sticker says. They have to be.

3. Hotel safes are worthless. I won't buy a small gun lock box with an electronic lock for the same reason. However, the Simplex brand pushbutton locks offer real security. I have a 1/4" cold rolled steel gun box with the Simplex lock on it under my bed and it is very secure. Unfortunately not made any longer. But if you buy a good lock lock box (think child proofing, not burglar proofing) like this V-Line

http://www.vlineind.com/html/top_draw.html

http://www.vlineind.com/assets/images/DSC_0031.jpg

You definitely can rely on the lock. It's not a very thick box, but the lock cannot be picked or manipulated. Very good locks.

Also, no worries on any Sargent and Greenleaf mechanical dial (Type II) or electronic (Type I) safe locks. You won't find any YouTube vids of people picking those. Trust either, they're good to go. I like the simplicity of the electronic because with a carry permit, I am in/out of my safe dozens of times per week. I like the look of a classic dial, but they get old. If you are in/out of the safe a couple times a month, no matter.

Happy safe hunting! Excellent stuff, Quads, I enjoyed those!

[Wedge Rock]

Here is a "safe" I wouldn't recommend purchasing, unless you just want to store you smokes and whiskey in it. (for basic fire protection, great. Otherwise, don't put anything valuable in it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRTnJVwYkJs

Pffft. DUH! He used a pawn ship circular saw and a 4x4. These tools are not available to the most sophisticated terrorist let alone the average home burglar...

[JCinPA]

OK, folks, listen up! In the absence of the old R&D Enterprises cold rolled steel handgun safe I got years ago, that has been discontinued . . . I think this is about the best on the market at the moment.

Mostly for kid proofing, but with 10 gauge walls and the Simplex mechanical lock, it is about the best small pistol box going. It will not stop burglars, but it will stop the most determined curious teenagers.

http://www.ftknox.com/redesign/pistolboxes/

http://www.ftknox.com/redesign/images/safe_images/HandgunSafeBoxClosed.jpg

Hella expensive, but it's the best out there. V-Line would be my second choice.

[JCinPA]

Hey, Quads, I'm having loads of fun with this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aqGjDhd7Pc&feature=related


And one for your Patriot!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XohEX1o_aU&feature=related

Amsec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6k9iGGWQ1w&feature=related

I gots to have me one of these!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0qCQZW5IUE&feature=related

However this is more along what is in the budget!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YKmNDmKXVo&feature=related

[Quads]

I spent several hours taking care of last details with mine today.
Anchored to the concrete foundation and added rope light with a switch along with some storage bins for keeping small items tidy in there.

Picks with flash:
http://www.pcpotato.com/uploader/files/1/Cannon%20Safe%20P22__07.JPG

http://www.pcpotato.com/uploader/files/1/Cannon%20Safe%20P22__08.JPG

No Flash with the full effect of the lights.
http://www.pcpotato.com/uploader/files/1/Cannon%20Safe%20P22__09.JPG

http://www.pcpotato.com/uploader/files/1/Cannon%20Safe%20P22__10.JPG

I used some rope light from Lowe's (24 feet / $14 buck IIRC) and to attach it, I bought a roll of velcro and used some velcro loops and a thumbtack into the wall (fireboard / drywall) so it worked out well.

Wired it internally for a 110 outlet as well. So I can run the lights, a dehumidifier and or a heat stick if needed. (need pick of it. the picks shown have the cord coming through, but not the box / faceplate mounted.

Done for now. Famous last words......
Wifey is happy for now. That's all that counts.

[JCinPA]

Done for now. Famous last words......


A premier table builder like you? I don't think so . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxWFyZ4SbVo&feature=related

Hehehehehe.

Nice job on the lights, bro!

[Mustang 82]

I bought a Fort Knox Titan 7241 about 2 years ago and the only thing I regret, I didn't get the 7251. I'm already out of room. The one thing I will say, get the biggest you can, you will fill it up quicker than you think.

[Quads]

I bought a Fort Knox Titan 7241 about 2 years ago and the only thing I regret, I didn't get the 7251. I'm already out of room. The one thing I will say, get the biggest you can, you will fill it up quicker than you think.

That's a nice safe!
3/16" walls. 1500+ lbs.

[Mustang 82]

Guys that installed it said 1860 pounds. Coolest part is the gear driven bolts, you can spin the 5 spoke with your finger and takes 2-3 complete turns to open the bolts. Massive sob. I also like the warranty, if it burns or someone tries to break in, pay for shipping, get a new safe, no questions.

It's not so much how much the guns are worth verses the cost of the safes, it's how much is it worth for me NOT to have some crackhead running around with one of my rifles.

I also bought Fort Knox because it is one of few true American safe builders that use American steel. Most have gone to Chinese steel and prefab safe bodies that may be "assembled" in America, but are really Chinese, i.e. Browning.

[JCinPA]

Excellent safe, Mustang. If you don't mind, what did you pay for it? They do make nice doors and linkages, no doubt about it. I'm curious what those sizes run, though. I think I might be able to get a similarly sized Graffunder for the same dough, but I've not priced the Titans.

They are gorgeous and cool as shit, though, no doubt about it. I just am not convinced they are the most efficient use of the dough per unit of security. And hope you never have to move the thing! :lol: Get a safe like that you better live in your retirement home!

[Quads]

Yeah, that Fort Knox is a bad manna jamma.
It's got much more steel than mine does.

And, I do also agree with Mustang on the US Steel, v. China steel.
I don't know what the measurable difference is in quality of steel, tinsel strength, etc. but I'm all about buying American iron. Our country was known for it for years, and now it seems China (who buys a rather large amount of recyclable trash from us) melts it down, adds some rice to it, and sells it back to us. It's a sad state of affairs, but it's a who different topic. Kudos for US safe builders (or anyone for that matter) buying and using US steel in their products.

[JCinPA]

Neat American safe builder here. Cute daughter model, too! I'm reading more and more good stuff about this guy's product.

www.sturdysafe.com

[JCinPA]

By the way, my weekend project is to remove the fancy electronic lock I put in five years ago and reinstall my original dial lock. I know I was singing the praises of the electronic lock, and I love it. It's technically more secure than the dial locks (but who is going to have a professional safe cracker break into their house????), but they do fail at a rate about 10-20X the mechanical locks, according to the locksmith stuff I've been reading.

Neither of them fail often, apparently both are very reliable (at least with gear from Sargent & Greenleaf, LaGard or Kaba Mas), so I'm not terribly worried. Chances are both types of locks go on practically forever. But when locksmiths do get called out to drill safes, it's a factor of ten to twenty times more often for the electronics.

I always liked the look of the dial lock and I was mad fast with them because I opened them a dozen times a day in the Air Force at some locations for file safes and vaults. I got the electronic because the wife couldn't operate the damn dial lock (you'd think she could be taught, but no. When I was out of town if she needed something in there, the kids had to be talked through it on the phone. My daughter could do it at 11, my wife never could.) I'm kinda looking forward to getting the old dial back on.

I may regret it, the electronics are awfully convenient, but I think I'll do it this weekend. Anyone want a five year old S&G 6120 electronic safe lock with original papers? It's $150 new. I'll send it to ya for $50 including shipping.

[Mustang 82]

Glad my wife isn't the only one who can't seem to figure out the whole dial concept. S&G on the Fort Knox and a LaGard electronic on an AmSec that is in her closet, no more phone calls. My brother-n-law is a locksmith and he was telling me that most of the safes that he drills out are for forgotten combos or attempted theft and such. The only problem with the electronics that I see are if someone rips off the keypad and there isn't enough wire left to splice, then your screwed.

Paid $6,300 for the Titan including installation and sales tax. Ordered the black textured with the black chrome hardware, lights and door holsters. Probably screwed the pooch on the amount I paid, but it was bought from a close friend of my Brother-n-law and I don't mind paying a profit to someone I know that has great service, call me crazy. Either way, I love it. I'll take some pictures and post them.

And yes, I don't want to move that big son of a bitch. When I sell the house, it may be listed to go with it.

[Mustang 82]

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z208/dirwin_photos/IMG_0036.jpg

The black chrome and the exposed hinges.

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z208/dirwin_photos/IMG_0037.jpg

The reason for the exposed hinges is it allows the door to be swung open 180 degrees and makes getting to stuff in the back corner easier. When you fill them full it is easy enough to get safe dings without having to fight the door. Most safe doors only open 90 degrees and leave that corner blocked.

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z208/dirwin_photos/IMG_0038.jpg

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z208/dirwin_photos/IMG_0039.jpg

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z208/dirwin_photos/IMG_0040.jpg

[BTSyndrome]

Question for those of you that now have the safe's that you want to supply your needs.(after the fact)

New house = new construction

If given the choice, would you still go with the stand alone safe of your
choice or would you take the opportunity to incorporate the safe into the
house plan?

By using a corner in the new concrete basement and only having to add the other two concrete walls
and ceiling along with say a door like this http://www.libertysafe.com/safe_vaultdoor.php
Just wondering if for the money involved if you would get more value out of
the $$ to have a 12' x 12' safe room with an 8' ceiling vs a couple different
safe's in the house.

Which would you choose?

[BTSyndrome]

Nice pics Mustang..

Safe sitting there with door closed, "How pretty"




Pic of safe with door open,
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a0dd23b3127ccef9d046467a7800000030O00GcNWjlu1Yg9 vPh4/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

[Mustang 82]

New construction I would absolutily build a safe room instead of a stand alone safe. One thing, do not, repeat, DO NOT use a vault door that opens to the outside like the one shown in link. A safe "room" is just that, it is a place to lock valuables and be a safe "room" in the case of an emergency, storm, break in, etc.... All vault doors can be opened from the inside without combination (obvious reasons) but if the building has colapsed or crap is piled in front of the door you are screwed. I know it sounds like common sense but most vault doors are just the doors used in safes with a frame and still built to open to the outside. A true vault room door is usually built to open to the inside.

Yep, Achmed tells it all.

[JCinPA]

Nice photos, Mustang! Thanks for the pricing info, too.

I like Ft. Knox safes, and they are really beautiful, I hate to knock them in any way. But I still think they put too much of their money into fancy door stuff that markets well for the value/dollar equation. No doubt they are gorgeous pieces of equipment.

But for that money, I think I'd be able to get a true "B" rated burglary safe (full 1/4" walls, 1/2" door plate) from Graffunder or Brown Safes in about that size. Maybe not, but it would be close.

Kickin Wing, you need one of these bad boyz!

http://www.graffundersafes.com/cache/img/e/3/2/d/4/e32d441db2bab9eced073f3a6762d451.jpg

[Mustang 82]

I looked a the Graffunder when I bought mine. Outstanding safe but the weight started to really become an issue with the B-rate and was insane if you looked at the C-rate, 800-900lbs MORE than the Knox.

As for price, once you take in account installation, the Graffunder is both quite a bit more safe and quite a bit more money and the Brown is in a totally different league, a 72x28 B-rate/fire, Brown is 2650 lbs (nearly more than a standard slab can stand on a 34x36 footprint).

Any way you look at it, the usual crack head won't be able to either open or move a safe of this size and it is really much more likely that fire will be an issue sooner than a credible attempt at breaking in.

Not to mention, it is a hell of a lot more fun to play with the contents than the box itself.

Dave

[JCinPA]

Ah, OK. Thanks for that info, I never did a comparison of weight and price for similar volume safes from Graffunder and Browns.

That being the case, I think it definitely makes Ft. Knox the top of the heap of the residential security container type safes. The 3/16" body with additional 10 gauge liner inside the fire lining makes this a truly solid unit. And as you say, the usual crack head, teenage miscreant or even repeat offender house burglar isn't going to get into these safes. Frankly, I'm not worried about them getting into my Liberty Lincoln, either.

I appreciate the photos and info! Thanks!

John

[BTSyndrome]

One thing, do not, repeat, DO NOT use a vault door that opens to the outside
Most definitely....good point!

It is a given living in Kansas having (storm) safe rooms with doors opening to
the inside. I have relatives that live in Greensburg that had there house
destroyed by the tornado. Safe rooms = staying alive

But the new houses being built are all concrete with just a heavy duty
normal steel entry door and locks.

I figure If you go to all the trouble to build a concrete safe room why not reinforce the concrete more and put a vault door on it to serve a purpose all the time.

Great thread JC

[Quads]

I'd build the safe into the house with a vault door into a concrete room as part of the basement. No question.

[JCinPA]

Found another interesting company.

http://www.summitsafes.com/

Hey, Quads, I've been reading about more issues with the electronic locks. Mine is 5 years old, and works great, but as I posted earlier, I'm about to put the dial back on. Searching some gun forums with safe techs on them I find out that the 80/20 rule is 90/10 . . . the electronics are 10% of the sales (or were until recently) and 90% of the problems. Not to say they are crap, both types are pretty reliable, but I'm going back to the traditional just in case.

I'll take some pics and post 'em for you. You shouldn't worry about yours, but a few years down the road you might want to put a dial lock on there, too. The black and white dials are the easiest to see. Runs about a benjamin on the net.

http://www.safeshowroom.com/eshop/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=6730

Check this out about a third of the way down the page.

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunsafes.html

JC

[Quads]

Yeah, Summit Safes are quite nice. Those guys aren't shy in putting steel in their product.
Simply look at the weight on their entry level safe. I think 3/16's is the minimum thickness they use for anything. No 12 gauge, no 10 gauge. Their prices right in line with their entry level starting at 2K. Nice safes! I'll consider them in my next purchase.

[Mustang 82]

Ok John, now you have me worried about my electronic lock. How difficult is it to change it over to a dial?

Dave

[Quads]

Look at the MTBF / Cycles for failure on the nicer electronic locks. I think I read in mine that it was 100,000 cycles before failure. I have a LaGuage (sp) on mine. I really don't think it's a point to worry about unless you've seen it acting up prior, or you use it 100's of times a day.

[JCinPA]

Ok John, now you have me worried about my electronic lock. How difficult is it to change it over to a dial?

Dave

Easy, I'll post photos later, maybe tonight.

Don't worry about it too much. Yours is fairly new, right? And my understanding is the S&G 6120 is pretty reliable. None of these fail very often, but the locksmiths say that of the failures they get called on the electronics outweigh the dials by a factor of 10X to 20X. Doesn't mean they go kablooie all the time. Mine has been flawless for five years.

One thing I've read is that if your linkage weighs on the bolt, the motor can eventually strip itself if the bolt is stuck a lot. I hold my handle to the side and that prevents it.

My brother in law used to work in a bank and they had dual dials on the big doors and two of them had to use two combos to get that open. Indide, they had smaller safes with the electronics because they could change the access easily. But the electronics would all break eventually (maybe years). The dials were pretty much trouble free.

[JCinPA]

I think that's LaGard, Kicking Wing. You're right, they don't act up very often, that's true. I'm just anal, and now that I read all the safe techs recommend the dials, I'm compelled to go back. I don't think it's a huge issue, really.

And the S&G 6100 series has a long history back to 1994, so it must be good. The LaGard locks and Kaba Mas are also well-regarded.

[JCinPA]

Holy snappin' duck manure! That was a bitch!

Done.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1162/safelock11.jpg

Mustang, I did not take process photos, I was too busy cussing. Took an hour and a half. Safe techs budget about 30 minutes for a job like this. I am not going to give you any photo help in swapping your lock out, I am going to suggest you call a locksmith and have him do it for you if you want to swap. My photos won't help with your door, anyway, I realized.

The reason is this is not just a typical DIYer's type chore, and you have the nicest, most expensive safe out of all of us. I was behind my door panel before when I installed my electronic lock so I had a good idea of what was in there. And I had fiddled with the lock a lot in the last few days in preparation for the job, and I used combination locks all the time in the Air Force, so I am an expert at dialing them and changing the combo (regs required a combo change any time someone left a duty office with a safe).

Even so, I ran into two issues where I thought I was going to have to stop with the door open and call a safe tech. One issue was almost not having the right machine screws on hand to get the plate that holds my relocker open, but luckily I had the right screws in the garage. The other was in setting the combination after installing the lock. I had to open the lock up after buttoning it up the first time and change something, then button it up again. I was sure I'd have to call a safe tech then, but I thought I knew what I did wrong and fixed it, and again LUCKILY I was right.

You will have more complex (and expensive) systems inside your door. Now that I did this tonight, I think I could get through it, but instructing someone on how to install the initial combination in one of these over a forum is going to be very tough. I might be able to help you over the phone and talk you through it, but you have such a nice safe, I'd really suggest calling a locksmith.

You can buy the lock yourself first, though and save the markup. I favor the black and white dials and rings, they are easier to see than these fancy ones. You can get the standard S&G 6730 Group 2 lock for about a benjamin. You can get the S&G 6630, a Group 2M lock (slightly more manipulation resistant) for about $175, and I think your safe warrants that upgrade. See here.

6730 ($100) http://www.safeshowroom.com/eshop/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=6730

6630 ($175) http://www.securitybase.com/locks/sandg-6630-combination-lock.html

I think Quads is right, though. None of us were likely to have issues with our electronic locks. My BIL who worked in the bank said theirs were opened about 5-6 times a day and generally went between 5-10 years between failures. Mine worked flawlessly for 5 years. I just prefer the traditional look of the dial lock and wanted to be as sure as possible that I would never have a lockout. I'm a little anal that way.

Bottom line, I'd leave yours alone. If you want to swap it, I suggest using a safe tech. If you still want to swap it and try to do it yourself, then let me know and I'll PM you my phone number. You'll want to have me available by phone when you do it. And you'll have to figure out your door mechanisms on your own. I can only help you with your lock. Best to call me right at the start of the job.


Edit: The fancy brass or chrome dials are pretty, but I will tell you the B&W plain dials are MUCH easier to read and open. The shiny ones make it hard to see the numbers in between the 0's and 5's. Here is a B&W dial. This is the S&G D300 dial with R211 ring.

http://accurateshooter.net/Products/sglockx216.jpg

Here you see some shine. . . probably from a camera flash, admitedly, and if your safe area isn't brightly lit with directional lighting, it won't flash like this . . . but then if it is not brightly lit, the B&W is still easier to see.

http://images.ableammo.com/catalog/images/browning/safes/S&G_Dial_Lock.jpg

Here is one in more normal lighting. They work, and they look sharp, and it's not a huge difference, but if you have a CCW and are into your safe 4-5 times per week up to several times per day, the B&W will be much less irritating over time. If you are into it once or twice a month or even a couple times a week, no matter, probably.

http://www.libertysafesofsacramento.com/images/images_pages/page60/lvl2-pg9.jpg

[Mustang 82]

I think I'm going to leave well enough alone. My safe opens maybe 1-2 times a week (if that). If I do decide to go ahead with changing it, I'll wait till the next time my brother-n-law is in town and let him do it.

Glad you were able to get yours going.

Dave

[JCinPA]

Yeah. If you have the S&G 6120 (you probably do), they have a great reputation. The electronics will fail more often than mechanicals, but I really have no idea about the frequency of either. I'm happier, though! :)

[JCinPA]

Reinforcement from certified master safe tech who was giving me guidance on another forum. His comments to my install post and photo.

Looks good.

From a technical standpoint, it is much easier to take a mechanical lock off and replace it with an electronic lock than it is the other way around. Had you not had any experience changing combinations, I don't think you would have been able to do it without having isssues.

Not counting electronic lock failures and lost combinations, people tampering with their safes is our leading cause of lock out calls.

Looks like I got lucky. I also looked back at your photo, that is, in fact, a S&G 6120, and you are likely to get years of good service from it anyway. Again, I was trying to reduce an already very small risk.